Who we are
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That's because we've exhausted the talent pools overseas which has led to rampant wage inflation amongst the talented. Yet companies still want to produce software for peanuts, so now they dredge the bottom of the barrel for anyone who can spell .Net (and apparently n.tE is close enough).
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
You're saying that there are no more talents over there? I don't think that, it's mostly about lowering the cost of the final product.
Work @ Network integrated solutions | Flickr | A practical use of the MVC pattern
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And a non-gender specific name as a control. For example, am i a guy or a gal?
My current favourite word is: Bacon!
-SK Genius
From your name alone, it is not possible to know with certainty. From having read things you've posted in the past, and especially your history of favourite words, I think you're a guy. But a fine human being in either case. :)
BDF A learned fool is more a fool than an ignorant fool. -- Moliere
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jesarg wrote:
I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
Thank you! I was hoping someone would get this. Just because the posters here might be less mature, it should not influence our own behavior. If we let it influence our behavior - by flaming the poster - it reflects poorly on the entire CP community.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
I think what really bugs you is CP members mocking those who post inane questions (for their own amusement). It certainly does give the forums less of a professional feel and more of a juvenile schoolyard feel. However, the oldest and most mature members of CodeProject are among the most likely to start these mocking sprees; I respect your efforts to maintain a more professional feel on this site, but I think it will be a constant uphill battle.
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You're saying that there are no more talents over there? I don't think that, it's mostly about lowering the cost of the final product.
Work @ Network integrated solutions | Flickr | A practical use of the MVC pattern
I'm saying the talent has become pricey as a result of scarcity, while the drive for costs has not changed. Ergo many offshored solutions go to those who are cheap, if not capable.
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
Brilliant, Hans. This is one of the motivations for the new, simplified voting. I strongly encourage you to vote a dumb question down and ignore it rather than abusing it. I'm also happy to simlpy make such questions disappear it they are truly awful (and we've all seen them) On the other side I do also want good answers applauded and will be looking at ways at rewarding members even more for helpful posts.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Am I the only one who sees innuendo in the word innuendo?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Am I the only one who sees innuendo in the word innuendo?
:laugh: Marc
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73Zeppelin wrote:
I think when answering obvious homework questions, the poster needs to demonstrate that some effort was exerted.
i think Hans point was to just ignore the question...not hand out answers.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
Wheres the fun in that?
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown "All things good to know are difficult to learn" ~ Greek Proverb "The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary" ~ Vidal Sassoon
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I often wonder why people bother replying "google is your friend". It's pathetic behaviour, wins no friends and reflects badly on the poster. If Google really is your friend, why bother with CodeProject at all?
martin_hughes wrote:
I often wonder why people bother replying "google is your friend"
I disagree to a point, replying with an link to a search can be very useful. Example, there was someone attempting to define and wanting to build a DAL recently, had no idea what it was but described a DAL requirement. Replying with a Google search for "Data Access Layer" I believe helped get the person on the right track.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Google isn't my friend. It won't take me out for a few drinks.
You obviously don't google the for the right kind of dating websites. Google is better than ANY friend I've ever had! ;P just kidding! I have a wonderful girlfriend and don't google for dating websites! Marc
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
Of course I agree with you 100% I've been saying the same things for at least a year now, you've taken the words right out of my posts (to paraphrasea common expression), right down to the CP becoming a victim of it's own success line. :)
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
Hans Dietrich wrote:
On Usenet It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting. Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never. It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words. It is common for posters to thank those who have answered. The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
The only usenet group that I am aware of that fits your description could be comp.lang.c++.moderated, and as the name suggests it is moderated. Stupid questions don't even get displayed.
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Am I the only one who sees innuendo in the word innuendo?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
in nu endo? :omg:
"I'm not altogether all together."
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
I have not read everyone's comments but here is my two cents. When people ask for homework or a simple question, there is always someone there to 'enable' the lazy user. I saw it the other day for Tic Tac Toe. A couple people flamed the user, but someone gave him a link. Often these users are newer members. By the time they registered they could have used Google. While I respect the idea of respecting everyone else, sometimes you need to slap the hand. It seems the "Y me?" generation doesn't want to do anything in terms of work, but wants all the glory. I don't know about other countries, but I've talked to college professors who have moms and dads of students calling trying to get their kids' grades up. I think it is important to let these people know that this behavior is not accepted here, nor is it accepted in the real world. How do these people expect to get jobs? In some cases it sounds like they lied in the interview and now they rely on others to get by and not get fired. I worked hard for my degree, and I have been laid off twice. When I have a problem I like to figure it out. I think that is what makes a true programmer. Many of us won't ask for help until we've exhausted all possibilities on our own. If me flaming someone makes them reconsider their major, I think that is a good thing. We need to weed out the fakers.
New feature! Scroll down to see CP offenders! Current Rant: "It's only Tuesday?" http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]
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Well you've changed me. I feel the love flowing through me.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil manner.
You're assuming here that we respect our family members.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
The CP forums can and should reflect our image, not that of transients who do not appreciate or care about our culture.
Sod that. I'm a CP hobo. ;P Have you noticed that it's not every forum? Ironically the newer technology forums such as WPF and Linq get a better level of question than forums such as the ASP.NET or C# forums. I'd have to say that the worst forum is the ASP.NET forum, with the SQL forum coming a close second. And - a small point here, the difference between Usenet and CP is that Usenet users tend to be more savvy anyway, pretty much everybody knows how to use the internet, but knowing about Usenet is at a higher level.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
You're assuming here that we respect our family members.
He's obviously never met my brother. :-D My brother deserves less respect than John gives the majority of Indian posters. :laugh: by an exponent!
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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i think Hans point was to just ignore the question or vote it down in some manner...not hand out answers.
Hans wrote:
If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
I think the ignore bit is wrong, there would be 2 types of questions - those that are too hard/complicated/obscure that they do not get answered and the idiot questions. I beleive the idiot questions should be discouraged - strongly. We need the others as they are what push us forward. I agree with Marc - if they were a family member I'd be a dammed site ruder than I am and they really should be eliminated from the gene pool. Fools should NOT be suffered unless it is to part them from their cash. Idiocy should be punished and we can't physically slap them so a good dollop of sarcasm is warranted.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Your memories of USENET are rosier than mine. I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first. Of course, CP forums generally don't have FAQs, so Google is the stand-in.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters.
Respect is a two-way street. That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them. No idea if that helps, but it does waste less of my time... :~
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them
Please Shog, your time invested in slapping idiot questions is appreciated (by some), putting a one vote does not tell an idiot they are an idiot, you need to add a rude/sarcastic comment just to get through to them - remember these are the IDIOT question askers. We all got slapped on the way to knowledge, it's how some of us learn. Do not deny the current crop of idiots your vitriol, how else are they going to learn. I think Hans ideas are way too PC.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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jesarg wrote:
I think that if someone posted a the same questions in the same way on CodeProject, they'd get roughly the same response.
Thank you! I was hoping someone would get this. Just because the posters here might be less mature, it should not influence our own behavior. If we let it influence our behavior - by flaming the poster - it reflects poorly on the entire CP community.
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
Hans Depends on what your CP goals are, mine are to improve and help ultimately I'd like to think some of the idiots actually learn something and become skilled, I know I did. If an someone asks an idiot question the most valid response should be to point out the idiocy of the question. Some do it politely, some of us less so and some are downright harsh. Ignoring or 1 voting the question is the WRONG response. The idiot learns nothing. Please be kind to idiots, slap them.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Your memories of USENET are rosier than mine. I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first. Of course, CP forums generally don't have FAQs, so Google is the stand-in.
Hans Dietrich wrote:
First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters.
Respect is a two-way street. That said, i'm trying harder these days to just down-vote lazy questions rather than replying to them. No idea if that helps, but it does waste less of my time... :~
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
Your memories of USENET are rosier than mine. I recall many slappings, given and received, for asking obvious questions, not providing enough details, or neglecting to check the FAQ first.
Very true! Where do you think the fine old art of flame wars actually were developed? Actually, it was brought into high art on the old BBSes, on the old FIDO and RIME echomail nets, but certainly, USENET was a center for developing the art form to its heights. Perhaps it is a more polite, forgiving world today, but if a lurker was stupid enough to step out of the shadows without proper netiquette and start posting outside the requirements stated in the newsgroup's FAQ he or she would be thoroughly spanked and sent home to Mommy. What happens here at CP is actually fairly gentle compared to some towering flames I've seen in the past. That said, I do think we've perhaps gotten a little out of control around here. Once can clearly and quite painfully provide a luser attitude readjustment tool (aka LART, sometimes represented by a clue-X-4, a bat, a length of pipe or a sledgehammer) to the head of an idiot without resorting to unnecessary insults that are cast too broadly. If a flame is necessary, let's try for some precision, people! And let's reserve the weaponry for those who've proven they can't be redirected productively, first. Then it's both more effective when used and less likely to provide a poor general impression. Right now, there's so much flaming going on around here that who notices a little more heat? < insert rant here > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While I'm at it, I will point out a couple of nits to pick that relate to a post or two in this thread: 1) The "Internet" is NOT equivalent to the "World Wide Web", or just the "Web" or "WWW" if you want to shorten it. The Internet is a bunch of interconnected computer networks that are connected by various means (fiber, copper, wireless, etc.) The World Wide Web and USENET (among others) are both services that run on the Internet. I suppose, in a way, you could think of the Internet as the container for all the other services. Please do not equate them. 2) Oh, and the Web didn't start with Netscape or even Mosaic. That's just when it became appealing to the masses. There was a WWW before graphics were introduced. Honest! < /rant >
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The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
It's no more the world we grew up in. When I was diving into computers, contact with others was scarce (for me, only for the first years luckily). Information, documentation especially good one, was hard to get by. I guess all my assembler knowledge was founded by chowing down a Intel 286 reference - since it was the only "interesting" computer thing the local library had. Now, informaiton is at your fingertips. Too much information perhaps, but that's still more of a bonus than a problem for me. I can not respect a poster who failed to type the keywords of his question into google, or extract the right results there. The best thing I can do is ignroe them. I expect a certain amount of courtesy when asking for help - which does involve an attempt at spelling. (Probably I spellt the previous sentence wrong). But yeah, other than that, you are right.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
The recent comments about the quality of questions in the CP programming forums got me to thinking about how I find answers to questions myself. For many years before I found CodeProject, I read the Usenet programming newsgroups (now called google groups). Here are some of the differences between Usenet programming forums and CP programming forums: On CP
- Trivial or obvious questions will often be answered with "just google it."
- Questions pertaining to school assignments will usually be met with responses that range from "We're not going to do your homework for you" to "You're so lazy you're going to fail the class anyway."
- Posters who don't like the answers they get sometimes become abusive and make personal attacks.
- It's rare that a poster will thank anyone for a helpful answer.
- The overall impression after reading the forums for a while is that the posters seem to be fairly young and not very mature.
On Usenet
- It's rare that even basic questions will be met with the "google it" answer. If a direct answer to the question is not given, it's common to see a deep link into MSDN, etc. The tone of answers overwhelmingly seem to be respectful of the poster. The only offense not tolerated is cross-posting.
- Whether a question relates to school or not never comes up. Never.
- It is very, very rare to see any kind of personal attack or harsh words.
- It is common for posters to thank those who have answered.
- The overall impression is that the forums are frequented by professionals seeking answers from other professionals.
Of course, I know that my observations may not be shared by all, and yes, I'm sure there are counter examples. My conclusion: I would guess that posting questions on CP is much easier than dealing with the Usenet forums, and so to some extent CP is a victim of its own success. Can we do anything to help? I strongly believe so. First, I think we should stop - completely stop - disrespecting posters. If it's a homework question, or a question you absolutely know can be found using google, then fine - don't answer it at all. If the poster starts making insults, do not respond. If not replying really bothers you, then click on the abuse link. Whatever you suspect about the poster, I believe we have to treat them like they were a family member - don't blow them off, and if you reply, do it in a professional, civil man
I think asking people to use Google is perfectly fine. I think rude comments - from both the people asking questions and answering them - is unacceptable. Copy-pasting the teacher's question and asking somebody to do it for them, without showing any effort into solving the problem themselves, is also unacceptable. Then there is the fact that English is not the native language of a lot of posters, for which they get pilloried (from even the gurus, though I won't name anybody here) - this, at times, infuriates me. The anti-Indian bigotry has at times left me contemplating leaving, but I don't think I ever will. ;) Overall, you have my respect. You are my hero. :cool:
Cheers, Vikram.
The hands that help are holier than the lips that pray.