VS.NET future path.
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Daniel Ferguson wrote: Abandon ship! Women and children first, no pushing! C'mon, there's enough life rafts, er, Linux install discs for everyone.... "We can make extra rafts out of the other discs - Useless GNU Programs volumes 1-900" Simon "This is an equal opportunities airline. The pilot is blind." Sonork ID 100.10024
I won't consider them useless if Martin's Orwellian predictions about windows come true. "I was bored last week and a thought occured to me: Why is it that there is a government bureau which oversees alcohol, tobacco, and firearms? I was bored enough to call up the regional office of said bureau... I asked the man who answered the phone "What wine goes best with an M-16?" He did his best to be helpful, "That depends. What are you smoking?" -Unknown
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Colin Davies wrote: clients as the WinTel empire has hoovered up So who's the sucker in this senario? "I was bored last week and a thought occured to me: Why is it that there is a government bureau which oversees alcohol, tobacco, and firearms? I was bored enough to call up the regional office of said bureau... I asked the man who answered the phone "What wine goes best with an M-16?" He did his best to be helpful, "That depends. What are you smoking?" -Unknown
heheh, Shhh! Don't rock the boat! ;P
Shog9 --
Maybe Java is kind of like God, it "works in mysterious ways". It seems like your apps are running slowly, because in the backgroud Java is solving world hunger, or finding the cure to cancer. - Ryan Johnston, Don't die java!
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Shog9 wrote: The difference being, GCC isn't developed by Microsoft, so it can continue to be ported as long as it is needed. Microsoft may change the OS so significantly that GCC may not even be worth porting to "Longhorn". Remember "Longhorn" will be completely .NET based with Palladuim fully operational(Microsoft or a CA will decide if a program is "safe" to run). Microsoft probably will change it's license so GPL code will not be allowed to run on MS Operating Systems also. I see Microsoft getting more restrictive as time goes on under the guise of "protecting" users from unauthorized programs, worms and viruses.
MS isn't THAT stupid. They know there is a huge market for their computers that doesn't want a thing to do with .NET. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
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MS isn't THAT stupid. They know there is a huge market for their computers that doesn't want a thing to do with .NET. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
Tim Smith wrote: MS isn't THAT stupid. They know there is a huge market for their computers that doesn't want a thing to do with .NET Right. That explains why it's now so hard to find anything at MSDN that isn't .NET. "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."
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Tim Smith wrote: MS isn't THAT stupid. They know there is a huge market for their computers that doesn't want a thing to do with .NET Right. That explains why it's now so hard to find anything at MSDN that isn't .NET. "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."
Marketing and reality are two completely different things. "I was bored last week and a thought occured to me: Why is it that there is a government bureau which oversees alcohol, tobacco, and firearms? I was bored enough to call up the regional office of said bureau... I asked the man who answered the phone "What wine goes best with an M-16?" He did his best to be helpful, "That depends. What are you smoking?" -Unknown
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heheh, Shhh! Don't rock the boat! ;P
Shog9 --
Maybe Java is kind of like God, it "works in mysterious ways". It seems like your apps are running slowly, because in the backgroud Java is solving world hunger, or finding the cure to cancer. - Ryan Johnston, Don't die java!
Did you read the other posts yet? I'm on the verge of abandoning the boat. "I was bored last week and a thought occured to me: Why is it that there is a government bureau which oversees alcohol, tobacco, and firearms? I was bored enough to call up the regional office of said bureau... I asked the man who answered the phone "What wine goes best with an M-16?" He did his best to be helpful, "That depends. What are you smoking?" -Unknown
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Remember "Longhorn" will be completely .NET based with Palladuim fully operational(Microsoft or a CA will decide if a program is "safe" to run). As scary as that is, where there's a will there's a way. Notice how MS isn't having that easy a time getting people to use .NET right now... and that's giving away the dev tools. There is a long, long line of failed platforms that didn't make it easy to develope software for them. And as stated, if someone *really* wants to write C++ code for Longhorn, either they will find a way or they will not write for it at all. Martin Marvinski wrote: Microsoft probably will change it's license so GPL code will not be allowed to run on MS Operating Systems also. They would be shooting themselves in the feet. Yep, all three of 'em. Which they just might do. But, that's none of my business. Martin Marvinski wrote: I see Microsoft getting more restrictive as time goes on under the guise of "protecting" users from unauthorized programs, worms and viruses. Microsoft has always desperately wanted to be more restrictive, for the simple reason that the more control they have over a machine, the more money they can make off of it. MS wanted IBM to put a unique ID in the original PC to aid in copyprotection. They'll use any excuse they can find, BUT it can at least be said for them that they are fairly good at recognizing when those excuses won't fly. And the first email worm/DoS attack/Malicious trojan buffer overrun/Marauding Mongol Horde that brings down Palladium will be a serious wake up for those who thought it was worthwhile up to then. Meanwhile, i'll still be sitting here, writing C++ and laaaaughing...!
Shog9 --
Maybe Java is kind of like God, it "works in mysterious ways". It seems like your apps are running slowly, because in the backgroud Java is solving world hunger, or finding the cure to cancer. - Ryan Johnston, Don't die java!
Shog9 wrote: Notice how MS isn't having that easy a time getting people to use .NET right now I never expected people to even start to adopt .NET for at least another year or so. The changes involved plus learning what the BCL offers are just too vast for most to drop their existing code to develop anew. Shog9 wrote: and that's giving away the dev tools They give away the SDK, but they don't give away what most people want...the IDE. SharpDevelop is nice; but it lacks many features found in VS.NET such as a forms designer. James "Java is free - and worth every penny." - Christian Graus
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Marketing and reality are two completely different things. "I was bored last week and a thought occured to me: Why is it that there is a government bureau which oversees alcohol, tobacco, and firearms? I was bored enough to call up the regional office of said bureau... I asked the man who answered the phone "What wine goes best with an M-16?" He did his best to be helpful, "That depends. What are you smoking?" -Unknown
Exactly. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Remember "Longhorn" will be completely .NET based with Palladuim fully operational(Microsoft or a CA will decide if a program is "safe" to run). As scary as that is, where there's a will there's a way. Notice how MS isn't having that easy a time getting people to use .NET right now... and that's giving away the dev tools. There is a long, long line of failed platforms that didn't make it easy to develope software for them. And as stated, if someone *really* wants to write C++ code for Longhorn, either they will find a way or they will not write for it at all. Martin Marvinski wrote: Microsoft probably will change it's license so GPL code will not be allowed to run on MS Operating Systems also. They would be shooting themselves in the feet. Yep, all three of 'em. Which they just might do. But, that's none of my business. Martin Marvinski wrote: I see Microsoft getting more restrictive as time goes on under the guise of "protecting" users from unauthorized programs, worms and viruses. Microsoft has always desperately wanted to be more restrictive, for the simple reason that the more control they have over a machine, the more money they can make off of it. MS wanted IBM to put a unique ID in the original PC to aid in copyprotection. They'll use any excuse they can find, BUT it can at least be said for them that they are fairly good at recognizing when those excuses won't fly. And the first email worm/DoS attack/Malicious trojan buffer overrun/Marauding Mongol Horde that brings down Palladium will be a serious wake up for those who thought it was worthwhile up to then. Meanwhile, i'll still be sitting here, writing C++ and laaaaughing...!
Shog9 --
Maybe Java is kind of like God, it "works in mysterious ways". It seems like your apps are running slowly, because in the backgroud Java is solving world hunger, or finding the cure to cancer. - Ryan Johnston, Don't die java!
Shog9 wrote: MS wanted IBM to put a unique ID in the original PC to aid in copyprotection. Didn't they actually do this with Intel? Intel cpus had a unique ID at one time I thought.:confused:
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MS isn't THAT stupid. They know there is a huge market for their computers that doesn't want a thing to do with .NET. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
Tim Smith wrote: They know there is a huge market for their computers that doesn't want a thing to do with .NET. They know that 95% don't care how Windows works, only that it does. The other 5% run Linux, OS X, or Solaris. Most people who use Windows could care less if Microsoft dropped everything but .NET. MSDN is already being pruned of all things Win32, and COM. I remember when Win2k came out that the big deal was COM+, and now you don't even hear about it anymore. Most developers will change to what the market demands, and have no loyalties to any particular technology. You might find yourself feeling like an island if you don't adapt to what Microsoft dictates, because everyone else will follow what MS wants.
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Shog9 wrote: MS wanted IBM to put a unique ID in the original PC to aid in copyprotection. Didn't they actually do this with Intel? Intel cpus had a unique ID at one time I thought.:confused:
Yup they did, & got roasted for it too. Seems people like a bit of privacy. But as Martin mentioned, there's always a new plan afoot...
Shog9 --
Maybe Java is kind of like God, it "works in mysterious ways". It seems like your apps are running slowly, because in the backgroud Java is solving world hunger, or finding the cure to cancer. - Ryan Johnston, Don't die java!
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Tim Smith wrote: They know there is a huge market for their computers that doesn't want a thing to do with .NET. They know that 95% don't care how Windows works, only that it does. The other 5% run Linux, OS X, or Solaris. Most people who use Windows could care less if Microsoft dropped everything but .NET. MSDN is already being pruned of all things Win32, and COM. I remember when Win2k came out that the big deal was COM+, and now you don't even hear about it anymore. Most developers will change to what the market demands, and have no loyalties to any particular technology. You might find yourself feeling like an island if you don't adapt to what Microsoft dictates, because everyone else will follow what MS wants.
COM+? Maybe because it was a flop and nobody converted to it just because MS said so. There is a huge market outside of home and business use. The US Navy is a prime example of a large purchaser of Windows that is having huge concerns over the direction. They won't go with Windows "just becase". Trust me on that one. :) Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
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If I remember correctly, there are at least 3 compilers available for Windows. Intel, Borland, and GCC. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
And DJGPP (spin-off of GCC), LCC, Comeau (I think it exists for Windows too). FreeBSD is sexy. Getting closer and closer to actually submit an article...
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Shog9 wrote: There *is* GCC on Win32 as well, i'm sure you're aware... It doesn't mean it will work on "Longhorn" whenever that comes out.
Uhm.. it's customary to back up statements (at least with oppinions :)) If a C/C++ compiler [edited] somehow can't be ported to a particular platform, then something is utterly wrong with that platform - especially since C/C++ can be mapped fairly easy to assembly/hexcode. If you can't do that, then something drastic has happened to the hardware... FreeBSD is sexy. Getting closer and closer to actually submit an article...
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Marketing and reality are two completely different things. "I was bored last week and a thought occured to me: Why is it that there is a government bureau which oversees alcohol, tobacco, and firearms? I was bored enough to call up the regional office of said bureau... I asked the man who answered the phone "What wine goes best with an M-16?" He did his best to be helpful, "That depends. What are you smoking?" -Unknown
Daniel Ferguson wrote: "I was bored last week and a thought occured to me: Why is it that there is a government bureau which oversees alcohol, tobacco, and firearms? I was bored enough to call up the regional office of said bureau... I asked the man who answered the phone "What wine goes best with an M-16?" He did his best to be helpful, "That depends. What are you smoking?" Excellent! "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."
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Rudder said in 2003 Microsoft must ensure .NET becomes the preferred architecture for application development. To achieve this, Microsoft must convert millions of developers using existing versions of C/C++ and Visual Basic onto .NET versions of the company's languages. These .NET languages underpin Microsoft's servers. One way is to build greater support in the community for Microsoft's programming languages, tools and servers. Microsoft believes Linux has cracked this nut, and explains Microsoft's ASP.NET Web Matrix Project - a community development tool for building ASP.NET Web applications available for free download. "We need to build a vibrant and healthy developer community. That's the lesson Linux has taught us. Having people to help. Knowing where to get questions answered," Rudder said. Rudder also revealed more details of future versions of Visual Studio.NET, highlighted on Wednesday's .NET Briefing Day. Visual Studio.NET Everett will for the first time include the .NET Compact Framework for developers of mobile applications. Delivery is scheduled for the time-frame of Windows .NET Server. Visual Studio.NET Yukon, will feature an improved integrated development environment (IDE), "community support" and integration with SQL Server enabling developers to build database features like stored procedures in languages like C++, Visual J# and TSQL, used in SQL Server. Visual Studio.NET Longhorn is scheduled to ship with the Longhorn operating system, supporting a new storage system and user interface. Microsoft plans budget and staff expansion to woo corporates. Research and development will grow more than 20% in 2003 to $5.2bn, with $2bn going on server technology. http://www.theregus.com/content/4/25754.html[^]
I guess I am just gonna wait and watch if MS is willing to put its money where its mouth is. Let them rewrite at least ONE of Excel, Word, IE, MSN Messenger or Outlook to C#/.NET and I will follow suit. The same with Autocad, Visio, Rational Rose, Dreamweaver, Flash. Why will small time developers fall for C#/.NET while big businesses are not willing to bet on it ? The bottomline is, the risk reward with C++ still remains very attractive. - Vivek
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I think they have their head up their ass and will try to push people to the whole .NET mess. Me, I am just sticking with C/C++ ATM. If they ever phase that out, I will switch to another compiler. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
i'm with Tim on this one. .Net is worthless to me. i write desktop apps; apps that have no need for network access. -c
To explain Donald Knuth's relevance to computing is like explaining Paul's relevance to the Catholic Church. He isn't God, he isn't the Son of God, but he was sent by God to explain God to the masses.
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And DJGPP (spin-off of GCC), LCC, Comeau (I think it exists for Windows too). FreeBSD is sexy. Getting closer and closer to actually submit an article...
And Digital Mars[^].
Jason Jystad
Cito Technologies
Sonork ID: Ogami(100.9918)
People seem to misinterpret complexity as sophistication.
--Niklaus Wirth (Co-Inventor of Pascal) -
I guess I am just gonna wait and watch if MS is willing to put its money where its mouth is. Let them rewrite at least ONE of Excel, Word, IE, MSN Messenger or Outlook to C#/.NET and I will follow suit. The same with Autocad, Visio, Rational Rose, Dreamweaver, Flash. Why will small time developers fall for C#/.NET while big businesses are not willing to bet on it ? The bottomline is, the risk reward with C++ still remains very attractive. - Vivek
Vivek Rajan wrote: Let them rewrite at least ONE of Excel, Word, IE, MSN Messenger or Outlook to C#/.NET and I will follow suit. From my understanding, they don't use MFC in these programs either. Will you not use MFC until MS uses it on it's own projects? -- Russell Morris "WOW! Chocolate - half price!" - Homer Simpson, while in the land of chocolate.
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Vivek Rajan wrote: Let them rewrite at least ONE of Excel, Word, IE, MSN Messenger or Outlook to C#/.NET and I will follow suit. From my understanding, they don't use MFC in these programs either. Will you not use MFC until MS uses it on it's own projects? -- Russell Morris "WOW! Chocolate - half price!" - Homer Simpson, while in the land of chocolate.
The VC6 IDE was written in MFC, and it was a fairly substantial app. A better example might be SourceSafe. None of the larger teams at MS use SourceSafe (partly because their code predates SourceSafe, but mostly because SourceSafe doesn't scale to hundreds of users very well).