VS2010 CTP
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Because he used to work there. Look up the origins of WTL if you don't believe me. ;)
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Sorry, that probably came across wrong. I wasn't questioning that he did know, just how he knew. It just struck me as amazing that they didn't use their own tool.
The only thing unpredictable about me is just how predictable I'm going to be.
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
As far as C++ being a "first class language" within MS - I'll believe it when I see it too.
C++ is definitelly the most important language internaly in MS. However, that does not extend to the Visual Studio IDE. Most MS developers don't use it at all.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
C++ is definitelly the most important language internaly in MS. However, that does not extend to the Visual Studio IDE. Most MS developers don't use it at all.
Interesting. What do most MS developers use then? I was actually thinking more in terms of Microsoft's Marketing effort, who are very good at giving the impression that the only VS languages worth promoting are the managed ones. Somehow I doubt that will change significantly in this release.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
As far as C++ being a "first class language" within MS - I'll believe it when I see it too.
C++ is definitelly the most important language internaly in MS. However, that does not extend to the Visual Studio IDE. Most MS developers don't use it at all.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Most MS developers don't use it at all.
What do they use??
ed ~"Watch your thoughts; they become your words. Watch your words they become your actions. Watch your actions; they become your habits. Watch your habits; they become your character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny." -Frank Outlaw.
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
As far as C++ being a "first class language" within MS - I'll believe it when I see it too.
C++ is definitelly the most important language internaly in MS. However, that does not extend to the Visual Studio IDE. Most MS developers don't use it at all.
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I'm glad you found a worthy replacement. :) VS2008 seems to me to a big improvement on VS2005 for C++, but I still find VS2003 easier and a bit more lightweight. That said, we have multiple versions of project files for our projects, so we can jump IDEs at will. As a result I tend to use VS2008 on my desktop box and VS2003 on my laptop.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
we have multiple versions of project files for our projects, so we can jump IDEs at will.
And how do you do that? we wanna work on the same project with different IDE's as I have VS2008 and my friend has VS2005. So how can we achieve it? Thanks.
------------------------------------------------------------------ Life would have been much easier if I had the source-code!!
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
we have multiple versions of project files for our projects, so we can jump IDEs at will.
And how do you do that? we wanna work on the same project with different IDE's as I have VS2008 and my friend has VS2005. So how can we achieve it? Thanks.
------------------------------------------------------------------ Life would have been much easier if I had the source-code!!
We maintain multiple versions of the project files, and use a continuous integration server (running CruiseControl.NET[^]) to spot any breaks when files are checked in.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Sorry, that probably came across wrong. I wasn't questioning that he did know, just how he knew. It just struck me as amazing that they didn't use their own tool.
The only thing unpredictable about me is just how predictable I'm going to be.
That's OK! Nothing surprises me when it comes to large organisations...
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
C++ is definitelly the most important language internaly in MS. However, that does not extend to the Visual Studio IDE. Most MS developers don't use it at all.
Interesting. What do most MS developers use then? I was actually thinking more in terms of Microsoft's Marketing effort, who are very good at giving the impression that the only VS languages worth promoting are the managed ones. Somehow I doubt that will change significantly in this release.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
What do most MS developers use then?
Depending on the team. I think SourceInsight is the most popular for code editing and browsing.
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Because he used to work there. Look up the origins of WTL if you don't believe me. ;)
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
Because he used to work there. Look up the origins of WTL if you don't believe me
I think you are taking me for Nenad Stefanovic - the autor of WTL. We were both born in Serbia, but I am not him :) And I actually do work "there", although not in Redmond, but in Boston area.
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
Because he used to work there. Look up the origins of WTL if you don't believe me
I think you are taking me for Nenad Stefanovic - the autor of WTL. We were both born in Serbia, but I am not him :) And I actually do work "there", although not in Redmond, but in Boston area.
Forgive me - my brain isn't in gear at the moment. :doh:
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
What do most MS developers use then?
Depending on the team. I think SourceInsight is the most popular for code editing and browsing.
Interesting. Thanks :rose:
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
C++ is definitelly the most important language internaly in MS. However, that does not extend to the Visual Studio IDE. Most MS developers don't use it at all.
Interesting. What do most MS developers use then? I was actually thinking more in terms of Microsoft's Marketing effort, who are very good at giving the impression that the only VS languages worth promoting are the managed ones. Somehow I doubt that will change significantly in this release.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
I was actually thinking more in terms of Microsoft's Marketing effort, who are very good at giving the impression that the only VS languages worth promoting are the managed ones. Somehow I doubt that will change significantly in this release.
After all the anti-competitive rigmarole they've been through in other areas, MS can't very well push vendor-lock-in on their developer base the same way Apple does. Promoting their own proprietary (& yes, I know about Mono & MS's "open" standards for C# - pffft) development models works just as well. OTOH, one of my biggest pet-hates is the effort that MS expends on .net support (& previously VB) at the expense (or just neglect) of C++ (& other not-created-by-Microsoft languages). If that much effort went into optimised, natively compilable C++ template & class libraries, IDE support & documentation for them, code_ bloat[^] wouldn't have become the generic term it is today.
T-Mac-Oz "When I'm ruler of the universe ... I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I'm just as frustrated as you are. It turns out to be a non-trivial problem." - Linus Torvalds
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<joke>You mean it should a) have a crap compiler and b) crash randomly if you open a large workspace?</joke> To be honest, I've not played with it enough to be able to form an opinion on that! In fact I rather suspect that the only people who could tell you whether it succeeds in that regard are those who still use VC6 in preference to the later versions. As I'm a VS2003 fan, I suspect I'm not qualified. That said, once we've completed a trial port of one of our products to it and actually used the thing for a while, we should be able to tell whether the "10 is the new 6" thing was complete hot wind or not. We may have a crack at that around Christmas; right now we're just too busy to spend much time on it.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
a) have a crap compiler :- That's it exactly - I note they're implementing some parts of C++ 0x (lambda's, r-value references etc.) but missing support for Concepts. To my mind, concepts is the single most important part of C++ 0x - it has a pervasive influence throughout the standard library. I really think they should hold off from C++ 0x until they support it fully - I'd rather wait for VC11 and have full (or most) of the standard implemented. Otherwise, coding for C++ 0x will be hobbled to put it mildly. I've been encouraged recently by the improved standards-compliance of VC++, I really don't see that partially implementing C++0x improves the situation.
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a) have a crap compiler :- That's it exactly - I note they're implementing some parts of C++ 0x (lambda's, r-value references etc.) but missing support for Concepts. To my mind, concepts is the single most important part of C++ 0x - it has a pervasive influence throughout the standard library. I really think they should hold off from C++ 0x until they support it fully - I'd rather wait for VC11 and have full (or most) of the standard implemented. Otherwise, coding for C++ 0x will be hobbled to put it mildly. I've been encouraged recently by the improved standards-compliance of VC++, I really don't see that partially implementing C++0x improves the situation.
I must admit that's the first news I've heard about exactly which bits of C++ 09 they were planning to implement. Do you have a link? But you're right. Leaving out concepts is a pain. :( To be honest, I wasn't expecting a full implementation in VS2010 - as you rightly point out, the release schedule just isn't compatible with that. Unfortunately the VS2010 release is also being driven by other developments within MS (notably Oslo), so it looks like we'll have have to wait until VS2012 (or whatever) for a full implementation - unless they decide to upgrade the compiler in the first service pack. On the plus side, I daresay that if any MS people turn up at the ACCU Conference[^] next April (I guarantee several of the Standards Committee will be there) I daresay they'll be left in no doubt over what people think of the omissions. ;)
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
What do most MS developers use then?
Depending on the team. I think SourceInsight is the most popular for code editing and browsing.
Thanks. :)
"In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni
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I must admit that's the first news I've heard about exactly which bits of C++ 09 they were planning to implement. Do you have a link? But you're right. Leaving out concepts is a pain. :( To be honest, I wasn't expecting a full implementation in VS2010 - as you rightly point out, the release schedule just isn't compatible with that. Unfortunately the VS2010 release is also being driven by other developments within MS (notably Oslo), so it looks like we'll have have to wait until VS2012 (or whatever) for a full implementation - unless they decide to upgrade the compiler in the first service pack. On the plus side, I daresay that if any MS people turn up at the ACCU Conference[^] next April (I guarantee several of the Standards Committee will be there) I daresay they'll be left in no doubt over what people think of the omissions. ;)
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna, Sorry it took a while to find the link... as they say in the West of England.. yer tis.. Visual C++ Team Blog[^]
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Anna, Sorry it took a while to find the link... as they say in the West of England.. yer tis.. Visual C++ Team Blog[^]
Thanks :)
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
The C++ .vcproj file format doesn't seem to have changed to MSBuild format (as we had expected),
Don't keep your hopes up. I don't think they really care about C++ anymore. I suspect the VS budget is cut in 2% for the C++ team, 55% to VB, and the rest to C#. Intellisense for C++ has been utterly broken for two major releases now, and that really isn't helping productivity much, because C++ is less about drag and drop, but more about typing. :sigh:
Yep, I hated VC6 for the intellisense as well... however, I found WholeTomato's Visual Assist more than compensated for that. I pretty much Skipped VS2002 and want to VS2003... been upgrading each time a new version comes out. Most of my work now deals with WPF, which, sadly the designer in VS2008 is, well, poor (even though I generally edit the XML directly and just use the designer as a sanity check).