Builtind culturally aware applications
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In the world of web applications I happen to think it's very important to at least work towards developing truly internationalized applications...not just language lookup which is trivial, nor locale formatting, such as currency, etc... I've have read up on much of the caveats when building culturally aware applications and made some interesting/annoying discoveries. :P Only annoying because it just means more work, but I digress. In Thailand, they use a Buddisht calander as I understand. And this calendar has 385 days per year (or some greater than Julian/Gregorian or which ever it is I use). I always thought some values were undisputable, such as seconds in a minute. Is it safe to assume then: 60 seconds = 1 minute 60 minutes = 1 hour 24 hours = 1 day Is it only the the number of days per month that changes from calendar to calendar? How does the Buddist calandar have 385 days on leap years if it's a universally accepted that there are 24 hours in a day or 60 seconds in a minute? If I make the above assumptions, which all my calculations be culturally accurate? I use a the ICU libraries to perform most date calculations and apparently they are aware of the caveats and adjust accoridingly... But to deal with fragments on a more atomic scale like above, will these work undoughtedly? Cheers, Alex
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PCSpectra wrote:
How does the Buddist calandar have 385 days on leap years
If it has 385 days, it obviously bears no relation to the rotation of the earth, or the seasons. So why would it need to have a leap year at all ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Actually it does correspond to the earth's rotation so it does need a leap year and here's why and how: Buddist Calendar[^]
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PCSpectra wrote:
Gary Kirkham wrote: I didn't know there was a such thing as a buddhist calendar...interesting Neither...it is interesting and yet frustrating.
Frustrating like having to support inches in design software because the US won't go metric... :mad:
Steve_Harris wrote:
Frustrating like having to support inches in design software because the US won't go metric
Hah, I'm bilingual...improvise, adapt and overcome.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read
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In the world of web applications I happen to think it's very important to at least work towards developing truly internationalized applications...not just language lookup which is trivial, nor locale formatting, such as currency, etc... I've have read up on much of the caveats when building culturally aware applications and made some interesting/annoying discoveries. :P Only annoying because it just means more work, but I digress. In Thailand, they use a Buddisht calander as I understand. And this calendar has 385 days per year (or some greater than Julian/Gregorian or which ever it is I use). I always thought some values were undisputable, such as seconds in a minute. Is it safe to assume then: 60 seconds = 1 minute 60 minutes = 1 hour 24 hours = 1 day Is it only the the number of days per month that changes from calendar to calendar? How does the Buddist calandar have 385 days on leap years if it's a universally accepted that there are 24 hours in a day or 60 seconds in a minute? If I make the above assumptions, which all my calculations be culturally accurate? I use a the ICU libraries to perform most date calculations and apparently they are aware of the caveats and adjust accoridingly... But to deal with fragments on a more atomic scale like above, will these work undoughtedly? Cheers, Alex
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
I've been writing fully internationalized and localized apps (that even have a search feature, those who know, know the hassle behind *that*) sold globally for almost a decade now and we have customers in Thailand and I can assure you that the Buddhist calendar is not a consideration. It's good that you are using the internationalization libraries, I've yet to see anywhere that doesn't accept the standard minute, hour and day and in my experience it's always safe to use your own formulas for calculating anything < 1 day that doesn't involve a date. Thai is always one of the clssic test cases for internationalization and localization as it's one of the few written languages in the world that has no concept of whitespace.
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
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In the world of web applications I happen to think it's very important to at least work towards developing truly internationalized applications...not just language lookup which is trivial, nor locale formatting, such as currency, etc... I've have read up on much of the caveats when building culturally aware applications and made some interesting/annoying discoveries. :P Only annoying because it just means more work, but I digress. In Thailand, they use a Buddisht calander as I understand. And this calendar has 385 days per year (or some greater than Julian/Gregorian or which ever it is I use). I always thought some values were undisputable, such as seconds in a minute. Is it safe to assume then: 60 seconds = 1 minute 60 minutes = 1 hour 24 hours = 1 day Is it only the the number of days per month that changes from calendar to calendar? How does the Buddist calandar have 385 days on leap years if it's a universally accepted that there are 24 hours in a day or 60 seconds in a minute? If I make the above assumptions, which all my calculations be culturally accurate? I use a the ICU libraries to perform most date calculations and apparently they are aware of the caveats and adjust accoridingly... But to deal with fragments on a more atomic scale like above, will these work undoughtedly? Cheers, Alex
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
While your goal of "developing truly internationalized applications" is admirable, it may way not be necessary to take it as far as you might be planning. The example of the calendar in Thailand is something that I suggest you not bother with doing. Or at least not in the earliest versions as macu also suggested. I've spent much time in Thailand over the past several years and can assure you that everyone there is completely comfortable using the same calendar that we use in "the west." Any business that is transacted uses it. Any Thai person using the Internet will be able to cope with it. I realize this is just one example of problems with internationalized applications, but it seems to me core functionality that the majority of your users need should be your primary focus. Later versions can add features that a minority of users might need. Good luck!
BDF People don't mind being mean; but they never want to be ridiculous. -- Moliere
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Just out of interest, how many users do you expect to have on version 1.0 of your site that are on the Thai Buddhist calendar? In other words, maybe you should leave this for version 2 (or 22).
It would be more work than it's worth if I do not compensate for this factor in the inital design. In all honesty once I go behoynd ju7st simple langugae translation it's a simple matter of implementing locale aware 'types' in essence. Seeing as the framework already accomodates this and the inclusion of UCI makes almost all culrutal assumptioned for me, it's (for all intents and purposes) complete and finished. I created a timestamp class which reflects UNIX epoch however as an object that is queried with getters like:
time.getMinutes()
I wonder if the internationally acceptable to make the calculation based on 60 seconds in a minute
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
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I've been writing fully internationalized and localized apps (that even have a search feature, those who know, know the hassle behind *that*) sold globally for almost a decade now and we have customers in Thailand and I can assure you that the Buddhist calendar is not a consideration. It's good that you are using the internationalization libraries, I've yet to see anywhere that doesn't accept the standard minute, hour and day and in my experience it's always safe to use your own formulas for calculating anything < 1 day that doesn't involve a date. Thai is always one of the clssic test cases for internationalization and localization as it's one of the few written languages in the world that has no concept of whitespace.
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
John C wrote:
Thai is always one of the clssic test cases for internationalization and localization as it's one of the few written languages in the world that has no concept of whitespace.
It certainly makes design more interesting accomodating all those cultural biases, etc. It's required me to drastically change the design of much of my application. I am certainly going to use ICU librarues as they do a majority of the work, especially when it comes ot things like collation, etc... I'm actually just builiding in the support for it so if the app ever requires it it's a simple matter of setting the locale and translating the language strings, as opposed to the atlernative which is writting all parts of software that are locally biased.
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
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While your goal of "developing truly internationalized applications" is admirable, it may way not be necessary to take it as far as you might be planning. The example of the calendar in Thailand is something that I suggest you not bother with doing. Or at least not in the earliest versions as macu also suggested. I've spent much time in Thailand over the past several years and can assure you that everyone there is completely comfortable using the same calendar that we use in "the west." Any business that is transacted uses it. Any Thai person using the Internet will be able to cope with it. I realize this is just one example of problems with internationalized applications, but it seems to me core functionality that the majority of your users need should be your primary focus. Later versions can add features that a minority of users might need. Good luck!
BDF People don't mind being mean; but they never want to be ridiculous. -- Moliere
Big Daddy Farang wrote:
While your goal of "developing truly internationalized applications" is admirable, it may way not be necessary to take it as far as you might be planning. The example of the calendar in Thailand is something that I suggest you not bother with doing. Or at least not in the earliest versions as macu also suggested.
The sooner to remove cultural biases the better off you are from a design stand point. It makes conversion much easier, just setting the locale and being done with it, as opposed to refactoring all culturally ignorant parts of your applicaiton (which there will be lots of -- even in simple applications).
Big Daddy Farang wrote:
I've spent much time in Thailand over the past several years and can assure you that everyone there is completely comfortable using the same calendar that we use in "the west." Any business that is transacted uses it. Any Thai person using the Internet will be able to cope with it.
Thing is...while I am not disagreeing...ICU libraries do all that for me which is why I asked about the simple calcluation of 60 seconds in a minute, etc. As it's a single custom class to deal with time give as a timestamp.
Big Daddy Farang wrote:
I realize this is just one example of problems with internationalized applications, but it seems to me core functionality that the majority of your users need should be your primary focus. Later versions can add features that a minority of users might need.
See above; The sooner it gets designed into the core application/framework the better off I am. Cheers, Alex
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
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John C wrote:
Thai is always one of the clssic test cases for internationalization and localization as it's one of the few written languages in the world that has no concept of whitespace.
It certainly makes design more interesting accomodating all those cultural biases, etc. It's required me to drastically change the design of much of my application. I am certainly going to use ICU librarues as they do a majority of the work, especially when it comes ot things like collation, etc... I'm actually just builiding in the support for it so if the app ever requires it it's a simple matter of setting the locale and translating the language strings, as opposed to the atlernative which is writting all parts of software that are locally biased.
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PCSpectra wrote:
so if the app ever requires it it's a simple matter
Heh heh. You'd be surprised what will come up out of the blue no matter how much you pre-anticipate it, but it's good to know how to do it and it's good to have the app prepared for it, it's something everyone should go through at least once, it will make them better developers.
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
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I just can't visualise how long something is in cm or how much it might feel like in kg. I always simultaneously convert when my kids start talking foreign to me.
My new favourite phrase - "misdirected leisure activity"
A centemeter is a fingernail (width). I'll agree on kg.
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In the world of web applications I happen to think it's very important to at least work towards developing truly internationalized applications...not just language lookup which is trivial, nor locale formatting, such as currency, etc... I've have read up on much of the caveats when building culturally aware applications and made some interesting/annoying discoveries. :P Only annoying because it just means more work, but I digress. In Thailand, they use a Buddisht calander as I understand. And this calendar has 385 days per year (or some greater than Julian/Gregorian or which ever it is I use). I always thought some values were undisputable, such as seconds in a minute. Is it safe to assume then: 60 seconds = 1 minute 60 minutes = 1 hour 24 hours = 1 day Is it only the the number of days per month that changes from calendar to calendar? How does the Buddist calandar have 385 days on leap years if it's a universally accepted that there are 24 hours in a day or 60 seconds in a minute? If I make the above assumptions, which all my calculations be culturally accurate? I use a the ICU libraries to perform most date calculations and apparently they are aware of the caveats and adjust accoridingly... But to deal with fragments on a more atomic scale like above, will these work undoughtedly? Cheers, Alex
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
As a Thai, I can say that u don't have to worry about the Buddhist calendar. We use the same calendar as yours and we use metric system. :) The Buddhist calendar is only use for finding religious national holidays. I am very sure that most of Thais don't know how to change date to Buddhist calendar. ;P
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PCSpectra wrote:
they use a Buddisht calander as I understand. And this calendar has 385 days per year
Fascinating. Makes me want to lose an evening reading all about it.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
Fascinating. Makes me want to lose an evening reading all about it.
You can find a very good 65-page PDF file about calenders here: http://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html[^]. It contains details about several calenders (although I don't think the Buddhist calender is among them).
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Chris Austin wrote:
Fascinating. Makes me want to lose an evening reading all about it.
You can find a very good 65-page PDF file about calenders here: http://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html[^]. It contains details about several calenders (although I don't think the Buddhist calender is among them).
By the way - if anyone is interested in the historical facts behind calenders, this document is also a good source. I personally find one of the most amusing facts to be, that in the year 1712, Sweden had 2 leap days in February - because they forgot to take out the leap days in 1704 and 1708 (see section 2.2.4). Now why did they forget that? As far as I remember an explanation I once got, it was because Sweden was at war at the time, so they had their mind on other stuff.
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In the world of web applications I happen to think it's very important to at least work towards developing truly internationalized applications...not just language lookup which is trivial, nor locale formatting, such as currency, etc... I've have read up on much of the caveats when building culturally aware applications and made some interesting/annoying discoveries. :P Only annoying because it just means more work, but I digress. In Thailand, they use a Buddisht calander as I understand. And this calendar has 385 days per year (or some greater than Julian/Gregorian or which ever it is I use). I always thought some values were undisputable, such as seconds in a minute. Is it safe to assume then: 60 seconds = 1 minute 60 minutes = 1 hour 24 hours = 1 day Is it only the the number of days per month that changes from calendar to calendar? How does the Buddist calandar have 385 days on leap years if it's a universally accepted that there are 24 hours in a day or 60 seconds in a minute? If I make the above assumptions, which all my calculations be culturally accurate? I use a the ICU libraries to perform most date calculations and apparently they are aware of the caveats and adjust accoridingly... But to deal with fragments on a more atomic scale like above, will these work undoughtedly? Cheers, Alex
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
PCSpectra wrote:
Is it safe to assume then: 60 seconds = 1 minute 60 minutes = 1 hour 24 hours = 1 day
Not if you take leap seconds into account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_second[^]. On the other hand, most applications shouldn't bother taking this into account ;)
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As a Thai, I can say that u don't have to worry about the Buddhist calendar. We use the same calendar as yours and we use metric system. :) The Buddhist calendar is only use for finding religious national holidays. I am very sure that most of Thais don't know how to change date to Buddhist calendar. ;P
Haha...ok...sounds good. The only reason I was concerned was due to the fact the ICU libraries stress these little caveats... Cheers, Alex
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
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In the world of web applications I happen to think it's very important to at least work towards developing truly internationalized applications...not just language lookup which is trivial, nor locale formatting, such as currency, etc... I've have read up on much of the caveats when building culturally aware applications and made some interesting/annoying discoveries. :P Only annoying because it just means more work, but I digress. In Thailand, they use a Buddisht calander as I understand. And this calendar has 385 days per year (or some greater than Julian/Gregorian or which ever it is I use). I always thought some values were undisputable, such as seconds in a minute. Is it safe to assume then: 60 seconds = 1 minute 60 minutes = 1 hour 24 hours = 1 day Is it only the the number of days per month that changes from calendar to calendar? How does the Buddist calandar have 385 days on leap years if it's a universally accepted that there are 24 hours in a day or 60 seconds in a minute? If I make the above assumptions, which all my calculations be culturally accurate? I use a the ICU libraries to perform most date calculations and apparently they are aware of the caveats and adjust accoridingly... But to deal with fragments on a more atomic scale like above, will these work undoughtedly? Cheers, Alex
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
I understand that what the original poster meant was refer to "thai lunar calendar", but actually we use "thai solar calendar" which is equivalent to western calendar but the difference is we use B.E. (Buddhist Era) instead of A.D. So today is 25 November 2008 A.D. western calendar 25 November 2551 B.E. in Thai solar calendar and I don't have any idea what today is in the lunar calendar. we just don't use it anymore.
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PCSpectra wrote:
Gary Kirkham wrote: I didn't know there was a such thing as a buddhist calendar...interesting Neither...it is interesting and yet frustrating.
Frustrating like having to support inches in design software because the US won't go metric... :mad:
I believe NASA had a problem or two with this as well. For day to day life, fine mix units. For scientific work, there's really no excuse not to go metric throughout.
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I understand that what the original poster meant was refer to "thai lunar calendar", but actually we use "thai solar calendar" which is equivalent to western calendar but the difference is we use B.E. (Buddhist Era) instead of A.D. So today is 25 November 2008 A.D. western calendar 25 November 2551 B.E. in Thai solar calendar and I don't have any idea what today is in the lunar calendar. we just don't use it anymore.
apreasher wrote:
B.E. (Buddhist Era) instead of A.D.
Out of curiosity, did the person who made your calendar do any better with the dating than the monk who did the Christian one? (The most commonly accepted date for Jesus' birth is 4BC)
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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In the world of web applications I happen to think it's very important to at least work towards developing truly internationalized applications...not just language lookup which is trivial, nor locale formatting, such as currency, etc... I've have read up on much of the caveats when building culturally aware applications and made some interesting/annoying discoveries. :P Only annoying because it just means more work, but I digress. In Thailand, they use a Buddisht calander as I understand. And this calendar has 385 days per year (or some greater than Julian/Gregorian or which ever it is I use). I always thought some values were undisputable, such as seconds in a minute. Is it safe to assume then: 60 seconds = 1 minute 60 minutes = 1 hour 24 hours = 1 day Is it only the the number of days per month that changes from calendar to calendar? How does the Buddist calandar have 385 days on leap years if it's a universally accepted that there are 24 hours in a day or 60 seconds in a minute? If I make the above assumptions, which all my calculations be culturally accurate? I use a the ICU libraries to perform most date calculations and apparently they are aware of the caveats and adjust accoridingly... But to deal with fragments on a more atomic scale like above, will these work undoughtedly? Cheers, Alex
Blog Entry: 7 Software development best practices to make you more effective and productive PCSpectra :: Professional, Affordable PHP Programming, Web Development and Documentation
When I read the title I thought it was something deeper...well I tell what I imagined... Breaking the semiotics barrier between cultures, civilization, individuals, styles, languages... But it was all about units of measure, calenders, timekeeping... I little bit dissapointed there... I don't mean to be rude or brag or other things...I felt disapointed, after so many years of IT research we couldn't come up with something to do that. Asking too much. Sorry I didn't meant to offend anybody. Bye!
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When I read the title I thought it was something deeper...well I tell what I imagined... Breaking the semiotics barrier between cultures, civilization, individuals, styles, languages... But it was all about units of measure, calenders, timekeeping... I little bit dissapointed there... I don't mean to be rude or brag or other things...I felt disapointed, after so many years of IT research we couldn't come up with something to do that. Asking too much. Sorry I didn't meant to offend anybody. Bye!
It's probably been one of the most challenging aspects of development...having the discipline and insight into not building culturally biased applications... Not sure how it could get more "deep"...??? Please share
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