Why oh why do recruitment agancies insist on stupid tests?
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In my youth, English media of one sort or antoher often had war stories, in which the germans would always shout DONNER UND BLITZEN, BRITISHER SCHWEINEHUND and suchlike. No offense meant - and doesn't sortiere mean to exit?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
What do you call 30,000 recruiters at the bottom of the ocean? > A good start!
Mac
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I used to test applicants with a 10 or 15 question multiple choice before the interview began. The test was designed in such a way that a basic knowledge would get you 25%, competent was 50% and above, and if you got all correct you'd have to be pretty special. It had questions as simple as 'what is the correct way to declare an array' and ones like 'which of the following four table relationships best describes a many-to-many relationship'. After the test was complete you could see the level of confidence with people. If they didn't score that well but were confident it was just because the test didn't match their backgrounds, that was OK. If the didn't score well and had no idea why, then you knew that they were chancing it. I had experienced developers complete the test professionally and calmly, and I think they were happy that the person interviewing them actually appeared to have a clue, rather than some jockey from HR. Because if you get interviewed by a person with no clue, chances are when you start work, you'll be surrounded by incompetent people who all easily slipped past the interviewer. You would be floored to know how many people get past recruiters with absolutely no programming idea at all. Generally it's people trying to switch languages and pick up experience on the job, or perhaps helpdesk people trying to move themselves up the food chain. I once asked a guy what he liked most about vb.net (back when it was new) over vb6 and he answered that the 'todo list' at the bottom was pretty neat. I surmised he had opened the IDE once and looked at it, and this was the sum total of his vb.net experience. I think interview tests are more important than meangingless questions like 'where do you see yoruself in five years' (answer: not working for you, hopefullly) and 'what's your biggest fault?' (answer: I haven't yet managed to find a way to avoid going to interviews)
Bruce Chapman iFinity.com.au - Websites and Software Development | Do you need a specialist DotNetNuke developer? Plithy remark available in Beta 2
brucerchapman wrote:
You would be floored to know how many people get past recruiters with absolutely no programming idea at all. Generally it's people trying to switch languages and pick up experience on the job, or perhaps helpdesk people trying to move themselves up the food chain
true - but here's what happened to me once... Applied for job as Proj Mgr where they programmed in RPG III - no coding experience expected - and I had an AS/400 background. They didn't offer me that job (long story) but I got the job as developer - in RPG a language I had never seen. within a threemonth I was poached by an RPG software house because I had better skills than their own developers. If they'd given me a coding test I would have fallen at teh first questino (unless it was 'how do you spell RPG?') Yet I was their best developer in that timescale. So the moral is - Oh, I don't know - treat people lile people. Show some trust -0 if they lie to you then kill them off.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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_Damian S_ wrote:
Trouble is, you are probably not getting the best candidates put forward, as a lot of people who are experienced developers simply won't tolerate this kind of behaviour...
Well tough titty. If they do get through and come in for an interview they get yet more tests. The fact we go to so much effort to ensure we get good people is a reason applicants should want to work here. If people come in with the idea that they are too good, too experienced to sit a test they wont get far.
Au contraire - the people that are good enough to get to work somewhere where they are treated like people and not cattle will avoid you like the plague and you will end up with a team of geeks who canpass tests but are probably crap when it comes to thinking outside the oblong
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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I guess I just have a very dim view of this kind of thing when 2 hours into an interview answering all manner of technical questions about the project that I was (supposedly) going to be working on, I realised that I was simply providing free consulting for them and terminated the interview and promptly left...
-------------------------------------------------------- Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!!
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Because they don't know how to tell a good developer from a bad developer. If you take their test and fail then you're bad (which is not correct but is they way they'd see it). If you want to work at this company then you'd probably be ok taking the test, however meaningless it is. If you don't really care for the company then don't apply for the position (and thus the test actually did serve a purpose).
'cwpt in my case it was the Agency setting the test not the employer - presumably because the agency staff are as thick as a three week old thickshake and wouldn't know a line of C# from a pile of pooh. I igenuinely had someone from an IT recruitment agency recently ask me if I knew UB .Net
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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While I can understand your feelings about this test, I think they could have a use to cut off part of the applicants. I was once assigned a new co-worker who was supposed to help me in writing a brand new application; after I spend a week teaching him every basic skill of... VB.Net, I had to explain him how to write a simple
forloop: we had to leave him, to search for someone more skilled (maybe he was a PHP or Cobol guru, but this was not helpful to us). After that experience we decided to ask applicants to write some trivial code: of course, this code is totally useless in real world applications, but we can understand if the applicant is totally new to the technology (we may still be interested in him, but at least we'll know we need to spend some time in her education) or is readily deployable in our development team. Of course, this method is not perfect and is not the only criteria to choose among candidates. Just hope it helps you to recover from your "madness" :-D :cool:A Merry Christmas to All!:cool:Marco Turrini
At the risk of being repetitive, though, if you had exlained to teh thick one how he would be fired if he couldn't do the job, hopefully he would think twice. sure, there are bound to be exceptions, but I don't believe a test is the right way to go - except maybe for straight junior developer positions - even then the 'bring an example of your code and explain your thinking' is worth its weight.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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_Damian S_ wrote:
I guess I just have a very dim view of this kind of thing when 2 hours into an interview answering all manner of technical questions about the project that I was (supposedly) to be working on, I realised that I was simply providing free consulting for them and terminated the interview and promptly left...
When you get 200+ applicants a month you just cant interview them all.
No - but you can read their CVs and pick the top X to interview. And this position had, i think, two suitable applicants (through this agency)
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
How do i believe that you are developing for 30 yrs? Well you may have several documents to prove that but I know you are a tech guy so those could be home made. And ah! I can phone the company. Then you have some contacts there. And your portfolio, well our cleaner guy can copy all the software and website we made and go to a company and say I have done them. Were you stealing the projects to build your portfolio? You should know that every company get to know a person is hire able by asking him some basic question or getting referred by someone else.
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Programming tests are crucial when hiring programmers IMHO. We have recently been hiring and the simple coding tests really sorted the wheat from the chaff. You'd be amazed at home many 'experienced' developers are actually winging it (or have overplayed their language skills. We had a few obvious Java types applying for C++ jobs and they floundered on the coding and language tests). We make candidates write a couple of small C++ functions using a pen and paper. We also ask a bunch of questions about the C++ language, and show them a some sample code that is riddled with both syntax and logic errors and ask them to find as many as they can in a set time. If I was applying for a programming job then I would expect to write code in the interview. If I was bidding to paint a portrait of your family then you'd want to see examples of my work yes? :) How is coding any different?
So, you're an artist. I call you up and ask you to come over and paint my family. You arrive to ggive me a quote, perhaps, and to look for a suitable setting for the portrait. I know the painting will be done over a period of three or four weeks, in several stages (initial sketches, possibly some photos as the kids will fidget so) then.... "Oh, before you go, just paint a quick portrait of me, will you - you've got 60 minutes, because there's another three artists coming later to quote too." still want the job?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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How do i believe that you are developing for 30 yrs? Well you may have several documents to prove that but I know you are a tech guy so those could be home made. And ah! I can phone the company. Then you have some contacts there. And your portfolio, well our cleaner guy can copy all the software and website we made and go to a company and say I have done them. Were you stealing the projects to build your portfolio? You should know that every company get to know a person is hire able by asking him some basic question or getting referred by someone else.
Yep - so get my resume, and assume it is true (trust). ask me some questions about it, about my experience, about projects I've worked on etc. You shouldn't have to check if I am lying - if I am stupid enough to accept the position when I can't do the job, then O will be sacked - an inconvenience to you, but a potential disaster for an employee. where did all this mistrust come from?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Wouldn't have thought you of all people would need a job this time of year! Or are you looking for a second job to fill that awkward gap between December 26th and December 24th? :)
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
Steve_pqr wrote:
Or are you looking for a second job to fill that awkward gap between December 26th and December 24th
Well it is 363 days long...
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Welcome to the world of recruitment. :) A colleague of mine recently did a 4-hour dev exercise for an agent after initially refusing. After doing he 4 hours he just described the rest of the exercise. Not heard a word from the agent. In the past I've done agency tests of this sort and heard nowt back. These days I only ever do short tests over the phone. But in general getting the agency to test candidates in this way is lazy, poor and unprofessional. (OK, multiple choice tests via the agency are just about acceptable.)
Kevin
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What's as bad is when the head hunter doesn't know shit from Shinola. I'm a technical writer who started when strings of ones and zeros were considered a high order language, and I even have a couple of books and papers on SDLC documentation. Anyway, Ms. ShitForBrains calls me to ask if I've ever documented widgets and do I have experience with APIs. She doesn't know what either is, and after I explain it to her, she decides I can't do it and doesn't submit my CV. She's probably right. There is a difference in documenting the stability augmentation system for the space shuttle and some animation for yet another social networking system. Go figure.
Jay Reidy wrote:
Anyway, Ms. ShitForBrains calls me to ask if I've ever documented widgets and do I have experience with APIs. She doesn't know what either is, and after I explain it to her, she decides I can't do it and doesn't submit my CV.
Yes, we all come across this - unfortunately. :mad:
Kevin
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At the risk of being repetitive, though, if you had exlained to teh thick one how he would be fired if he couldn't do the job, hopefully he would think twice. sure, there are bound to be exceptions, but I don't believe a test is the right way to go - except maybe for straight junior developer positions - even then the 'bring an example of your code and explain your thinking' is worth its weight.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Father Christmas wrote:
if you had exlained to teh thick one how he would be fired if he couldn't do the job, hopefully he would think twice.
Yeah, I had a manager like that. I was on a contract at a company where my initial assignment finished. I was just packing my stuff to leave when another manager comes across and says "Hey would you like another six weeks work on another project?" I said yes. I then had an informal and friendly interview which was more just a chat. He then said that although they do have a standard technical test he personally never bothered with it for contractors. His philosophy was that if they're not up to speed within the week he just sacks them. Having said that, I'm not opposed to tech tests but many of them are poor IMO. But I detest having tech tests delivered via the agency rather than at the employer.
Kevin
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Programming tests are crucial when hiring programmers IMHO. We have recently been hiring and the simple coding tests really sorted the wheat from the chaff. You'd be amazed at home many 'experienced' developers are actually winging it (or have overplayed their language skills. We had a few obvious Java types applying for C++ jobs and they floundered on the coding and language tests). We make candidates write a couple of small C++ functions using a pen and paper. We also ask a bunch of questions about the C++ language, and show them a some sample code that is riddled with both syntax and logic errors and ask them to find as many as they can in a set time. If I was applying for a programming job then I would expect to write code in the interview. If I was bidding to paint a portrait of your family then you'd want to see examples of my work yes? :) How is coding any different?
Rob Caldecott wrote:
show them a some sample code that is riddled with both syntax and logic errors
I disagree with testing for syntax errors. It's quite easy to see what you want to see, even though you know what the correct syntax is. Plus in real life the compiler will pick them up. Better to just stick with analysing logic errors. Also, IMO many (or even most) tech tests are poor tools for identifying competent programmers. I'm thinking more of the "trivial pursuits" type questions.
Kevin
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So, you're an artist. I call you up and ask you to come over and paint my family. You arrive to ggive me a quote, perhaps, and to look for a suitable setting for the portrait. I know the painting will be done over a period of three or four weeks, in several stages (initial sketches, possibly some photos as the kids will fidget so) then.... "Oh, before you go, just paint a quick portrait of me, will you - you've got 60 minutes, because there's another three artists coming later to quote too." still want the job?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Of course I'd still want the job! Your problem with coding tests is totally lost on me and as an employer and someone who carries out many interviews they are essential for weeding out people that just aren't up to scratch. We're not talking about sitting people down to write a fully-fledged application, but asking them to code simple functions that, for example, will test their knowledge of pointer arithmetic, linked lists, memory management, etc. etc. I really don't see why you have such an issue with this. What are you scared of? Your an experienced developer so a coding test should be water off a ducks back? I bet you crushed the competition. I am with Joel Spolsky on this one. Candidates MUST write code in interviews because, sadly, people lie on their CVs and recruitment agencies will push people to apply for jobs they are not fully qualified for. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html[^] And as I said before, I wouldn't expect to go for a programming interview without writing some code - be it on a whiteboard or sat in front of Visual Studio for 30 minutes.
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
At least you had programming test. I've been in last 3-4 months on several tests where only psychologists decided who will be hired and who won't, without technical questions at all. I understand that IQ and some personality tests could be useful, but some are just pointless! I'll mention one gem: "What is more important to you, to have better relation with leader/boss or with co-workers?" No middle path, black or white answers only.
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Yep - so get my resume, and assume it is true (trust). ask me some questions about it, about my experience, about projects I've worked on etc. You shouldn't have to check if I am lying - if I am stupid enough to accept the position when I can't do the job, then O will be sacked - an inconvenience to you, but a potential disaster for an employee. where did all this mistrust come from?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
For an experienced developer I think that is a naive attitude. People lie on their CVs all the time - this isn't anything new - some people will dress up anything to make themselves look better. Recruitment agencies don't help as I'm sure they encourage people to apply for jobs they are not fully-qualified for - any chance for their percentage. If I interview you and it turns out you are not suitable then not only is it a waste of everyone's time and my company's money, it makes me look stupid - it makes me look like I cannot weed out a crap programmer from a good one. Let alone the damage you could wreak before the penny drops that you aren't up to the task. Well, coding tests are _one_ way to avoid this, and like it or not, they have their place. I know companies who have spent a long time and a lot of cash cleaning up after a shitty programmer who churned out crap before anyone noticed what was happening. I could tell you some stories about people I've interviewed with CVs that are littered with first class qualifications and claims of industrial-strength C++ experience, but when push comes to shove they just cannot cut the mustard - thanks to a combination of language, logic and coding tests.