Why oh why do recruitment agancies insist on stupid tests?
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Wouldn't have thought you of all people would need a job this time of year! Or are you looking for a second job to fill that awkward gap between December 26th and December 24th? :)
Apathy Rules - I suppose...
Its not the things you fear that come to get you but all the things that you don't expect
Steve_pqr wrote:
Or are you looking for a second job to fill that awkward gap between December 26th and December 24th
Well it is 363 days long...
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Welcome to the world of recruitment. :) A colleague of mine recently did a 4-hour dev exercise for an agent after initially refusing. After doing he 4 hours he just described the rest of the exercise. Not heard a word from the agent. In the past I've done agency tests of this sort and heard nowt back. These days I only ever do short tests over the phone. But in general getting the agency to test candidates in this way is lazy, poor and unprofessional. (OK, multiple choice tests via the agency are just about acceptable.)
Kevin
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What's as bad is when the head hunter doesn't know shit from Shinola. I'm a technical writer who started when strings of ones and zeros were considered a high order language, and I even have a couple of books and papers on SDLC documentation. Anyway, Ms. ShitForBrains calls me to ask if I've ever documented widgets and do I have experience with APIs. She doesn't know what either is, and after I explain it to her, she decides I can't do it and doesn't submit my CV. She's probably right. There is a difference in documenting the stability augmentation system for the space shuttle and some animation for yet another social networking system. Go figure.
Jay Reidy wrote:
Anyway, Ms. ShitForBrains calls me to ask if I've ever documented widgets and do I have experience with APIs. She doesn't know what either is, and after I explain it to her, she decides I can't do it and doesn't submit my CV.
Yes, we all come across this - unfortunately. :mad:
Kevin
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At the risk of being repetitive, though, if you had exlained to teh thick one how he would be fired if he couldn't do the job, hopefully he would think twice. sure, there are bound to be exceptions, but I don't believe a test is the right way to go - except maybe for straight junior developer positions - even then the 'bring an example of your code and explain your thinking' is worth its weight.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Father Christmas wrote:
if you had exlained to teh thick one how he would be fired if he couldn't do the job, hopefully he would think twice.
Yeah, I had a manager like that. I was on a contract at a company where my initial assignment finished. I was just packing my stuff to leave when another manager comes across and says "Hey would you like another six weeks work on another project?" I said yes. I then had an informal and friendly interview which was more just a chat. He then said that although they do have a standard technical test he personally never bothered with it for contractors. His philosophy was that if they're not up to speed within the week he just sacks them. Having said that, I'm not opposed to tech tests but many of them are poor IMO. But I detest having tech tests delivered via the agency rather than at the employer.
Kevin
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Programming tests are crucial when hiring programmers IMHO. We have recently been hiring and the simple coding tests really sorted the wheat from the chaff. You'd be amazed at home many 'experienced' developers are actually winging it (or have overplayed their language skills. We had a few obvious Java types applying for C++ jobs and they floundered on the coding and language tests). We make candidates write a couple of small C++ functions using a pen and paper. We also ask a bunch of questions about the C++ language, and show them a some sample code that is riddled with both syntax and logic errors and ask them to find as many as they can in a set time. If I was applying for a programming job then I would expect to write code in the interview. If I was bidding to paint a portrait of your family then you'd want to see examples of my work yes? :) How is coding any different?
Rob Caldecott wrote:
show them a some sample code that is riddled with both syntax and logic errors
I disagree with testing for syntax errors. It's quite easy to see what you want to see, even though you know what the correct syntax is. Plus in real life the compiler will pick them up. Better to just stick with analysing logic errors. Also, IMO many (or even most) tech tests are poor tools for identifying competent programmers. I'm thinking more of the "trivial pursuits" type questions.
Kevin
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So, you're an artist. I call you up and ask you to come over and paint my family. You arrive to ggive me a quote, perhaps, and to look for a suitable setting for the portrait. I know the painting will be done over a period of three or four weeks, in several stages (initial sketches, possibly some photos as the kids will fidget so) then.... "Oh, before you go, just paint a quick portrait of me, will you - you've got 60 minutes, because there's another three artists coming later to quote too." still want the job?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Of course I'd still want the job! Your problem with coding tests is totally lost on me and as an employer and someone who carries out many interviews they are essential for weeding out people that just aren't up to scratch. We're not talking about sitting people down to write a fully-fledged application, but asking them to code simple functions that, for example, will test their knowledge of pointer arithmetic, linked lists, memory management, etc. etc. I really don't see why you have such an issue with this. What are you scared of? Your an experienced developer so a coding test should be water off a ducks back? I bet you crushed the competition. I am with Joel Spolsky on this one. Candidates MUST write code in interviews because, sadly, people lie on their CVs and recruitment agencies will push people to apply for jobs they are not fully qualified for. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html[^] And as I said before, I wouldn't expect to go for a programming interview without writing some code - be it on a whiteboard or sat in front of Visual Studio for 30 minutes.
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
At least you had programming test. I've been in last 3-4 months on several tests where only psychologists decided who will be hired and who won't, without technical questions at all. I understand that IQ and some personality tests could be useful, but some are just pointless! I'll mention one gem: "What is more important to you, to have better relation with leader/boss or with co-workers?" No middle path, black or white answers only.
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Yep - so get my resume, and assume it is true (trust). ask me some questions about it, about my experience, about projects I've worked on etc. You shouldn't have to check if I am lying - if I am stupid enough to accept the position when I can't do the job, then O will be sacked - an inconvenience to you, but a potential disaster for an employee. where did all this mistrust come from?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
For an experienced developer I think that is a naive attitude. People lie on their CVs all the time - this isn't anything new - some people will dress up anything to make themselves look better. Recruitment agencies don't help as I'm sure they encourage people to apply for jobs they are not fully-qualified for - any chance for their percentage. If I interview you and it turns out you are not suitable then not only is it a waste of everyone's time and my company's money, it makes me look stupid - it makes me look like I cannot weed out a crap programmer from a good one. Let alone the damage you could wreak before the penny drops that you aren't up to the task. Well, coding tests are _one_ way to avoid this, and like it or not, they have their place. I know companies who have spent a long time and a lot of cash cleaning up after a shitty programmer who churned out crap before anyone noticed what was happening. I could tell you some stories about people I've interviewed with CVs that are littered with first class qualifications and claims of industrial-strength C++ experience, but when push comes to shove they just cannot cut the mustard - thanks to a combination of language, logic and coding tests.
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You would be surprised at the number of developers applying for a job that can't actually program.
Todd Smith
lol we had a guy come in for a half day once, after he had already had 2 interviews (which I wasn't in). We sat him down in front of a PC running Visual Studio and he just looked blankly and said he had only ever used Word.
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the sentence is not bad - but I guess they meant to write "DONNER UND BLITZ" - "thunder and flash" as "blitzen" is the verb for "Blitz"-flash "sortieren" is "to sort" "the exit" is "Ausgang" "to exit" is "verlassen" ( = to leave) and: no offense taken
I suspect the error was intentional. Donner and Blitzen are two of santa's reindeer.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
I think this is fruitless. This stupid tests can only evaluate how nervous you can get when passing throught tests. I personally always performed bad on tests and always have been complimented about the projects I deliver. If you want to know someone can program or not, simply ask him sobe key concepts in the interview, that he will only know if he is actually a programmer. I think those tests are stupid. I'm with you on that. Regards, Fábio
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I suspect the error was intentional. Donner and Blitzen are two of santa's reindeer.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
oh really? Never read any "Santa" story in english - in german they are actually called "Donner" and "Blitz" just as the weather phenomenon also see here: Myth funny to see that this side got the "Blitzen" VS. "Blitz" wrong to ... even funnier I mistook "lightning" with "flash"
modified on Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:22 AM
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
To be honest, I've been on both ends of the stick...being hired as a developer and managing hiring of developers. Trust me, "simple" coding tests or exercises (usually no more than 30 min.) can tell you fathoms on a persons ability to code, problem solve and even their work ethics. If you say you've worked with SQL, vb.net, C#, html (yea, dating mayself), etc...I assume you can create a simple select statement, a simple loop and other minor problem solving items...by hand! This came from meeting to many "experts" using wysiwyg/scripting tools, their "personality" or "friends" to develop. I'll admit, the tools are time savers but when the sh%t hits the fan, I need a person who can lift the hood up and get his/her elbows dirty, problem solve and get the job done. When it came to tests, I usually ignore the minor syntactical errors as, trust me, you can see right off the bat who knows what they are doing and those who don't. My classic case in a preliminary interview with a candidate and I drop the "quick" test on his lap. 15 min. later, he comes out saying he's done (and me thinking...sweet, some one who knows something) only to see blank sheets! I go, do you need any clarification on the questions? and...wait...wait... "...this test is too easy, I'd just google the info..." Hmmmm...OK...thank you I'll caveat though, I've had tests where they drop theory on your lap, directly from the Microsoft manuals. I know how to code and problem solve but drop theory on my lap (7 questions, each full page) and my eyes glaze over. I had to deal with that in university and got through that. I was not going for my Masters (or certification) in the interview. That did frustrate me (even though I did complete it and got a good grade :oP ) "Simple" tests work and I feel are a necessary evil to weed out the pretenders to get to the guys and gals who can do the job... 2 cents Dave
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oh really? Never read any "Santa" story in english - in german they are actually called "Donner" and "Blitz" just as the weather phenomenon also see here: Myth funny to see that this side got the "Blitzen" VS. "Blitz" wrong to ... even funnier I mistook "lightning" with "flash"
modified on Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:22 AM
CKnig wrote:
also see here: Myth
... learn something new everyday. :cool: Does this mean I can go home from work now? :laugh:
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
I've had a number of those tests like you've described. What was infuriating was that it wasn't a test on good coding practices. I couldn't stop thinking "This question is moot, because I would never code something like this!" It was more like a trick test. When I've had verbal programming tests, or tests based on code that was actually used I've done fine. I'm planning on writing & then studying code snigglets that can be found on these exams prior to my next job search. I can definitely appreciate your anger.
Mike Goldweber
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Hmmm... I did write my version in C...
# define pour for... My first (evil) thought wasperl -e "print ( join ( \" \" , sort ( @ARGV ) ) )" 1 3 2 6 5 4but it does string sorting (stupid scripting language :mad: ). Then I considered using C# and aList.Sort, but decided it might still be too smartassy, and I was only just learning C# then anyway.Here's a batch file bubble sort[^]. :cool:
The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader | Twitter
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I've had a number of those tests like you've described. What was infuriating was that it wasn't a test on good coding practices. I couldn't stop thinking "This question is moot, because I would never code something like this!" It was more like a trick test. When I've had verbal programming tests, or tests based on code that was actually used I've done fine. I'm planning on writing & then studying code snigglets that can be found on these exams prior to my next job search. I can definitely appreciate your anger.
Mike Goldweber
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Here's a batch file bubble sort[^]. :cool:
The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader | Twitter
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Even worse (IMO): 15 years progressive, full-time experience developing Web applications across a broad range of industries, and I recently had a recruiter (who sounded like he was about half my age) ask me the "M&M's" question... You know, "If the assignment was to manufacture M&M candies, how would you go about doing this?" WAS HE JOKING??? I remember being warned about this question way back in grad school (I also have an MBA), but that was so long ago I couldn't remember any of the fun "trick" answers, of course... Like a complete idiot, I actually tried to come up with some kind of an answer for this kid, but he kept going with follow-up questions on this topic for about 15 minutes until I'd finally had enough. I passed on the job (which was for .NET development, not making candy... go figure)...