Why oh why do recruitment agancies insist on stupid tests?
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Programming tests are crucial when hiring programmers IMHO. We have recently been hiring and the simple coding tests really sorted the wheat from the chaff. You'd be amazed at home many 'experienced' developers are actually winging it (or have overplayed their language skills. We had a few obvious Java types applying for C++ jobs and they floundered on the coding and language tests). We make candidates write a couple of small C++ functions using a pen and paper. We also ask a bunch of questions about the C++ language, and show them a some sample code that is riddled with both syntax and logic errors and ask them to find as many as they can in a set time. If I was applying for a programming job then I would expect to write code in the interview. If I was bidding to paint a portrait of your family then you'd want to see examples of my work yes? :) How is coding any different?
Rob Caldecott wrote:
show them a some sample code that is riddled with both syntax and logic errors
I disagree with testing for syntax errors. It's quite easy to see what you want to see, even though you know what the correct syntax is. Plus in real life the compiler will pick them up. Better to just stick with analysing logic errors. Also, IMO many (or even most) tech tests are poor tools for identifying competent programmers. I'm thinking more of the "trivial pursuits" type questions.
Kevin
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So, you're an artist. I call you up and ask you to come over and paint my family. You arrive to ggive me a quote, perhaps, and to look for a suitable setting for the portrait. I know the painting will be done over a period of three or four weeks, in several stages (initial sketches, possibly some photos as the kids will fidget so) then.... "Oh, before you go, just paint a quick portrait of me, will you - you've got 60 minutes, because there's another three artists coming later to quote too." still want the job?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Of course I'd still want the job! Your problem with coding tests is totally lost on me and as an employer and someone who carries out many interviews they are essential for weeding out people that just aren't up to scratch. We're not talking about sitting people down to write a fully-fledged application, but asking them to code simple functions that, for example, will test their knowledge of pointer arithmetic, linked lists, memory management, etc. etc. I really don't see why you have such an issue with this. What are you scared of? Your an experienced developer so a coding test should be water off a ducks back? I bet you crushed the competition. I am with Joel Spolsky on this one. Candidates MUST write code in interviews because, sadly, people lie on their CVs and recruitment agencies will push people to apply for jobs they are not fully qualified for. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html[^] And as I said before, I wouldn't expect to go for a programming interview without writing some code - be it on a whiteboard or sat in front of Visual Studio for 30 minutes.
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
At least you had programming test. I've been in last 3-4 months on several tests where only psychologists decided who will be hired and who won't, without technical questions at all. I understand that IQ and some personality tests could be useful, but some are just pointless! I'll mention one gem: "What is more important to you, to have better relation with leader/boss or with co-workers?" No middle path, black or white answers only.
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Yep - so get my resume, and assume it is true (trust). ask me some questions about it, about my experience, about projects I've worked on etc. You shouldn't have to check if I am lying - if I am stupid enough to accept the position when I can't do the job, then O will be sacked - an inconvenience to you, but a potential disaster for an employee. where did all this mistrust come from?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
For an experienced developer I think that is a naive attitude. People lie on their CVs all the time - this isn't anything new - some people will dress up anything to make themselves look better. Recruitment agencies don't help as I'm sure they encourage people to apply for jobs they are not fully-qualified for - any chance for their percentage. If I interview you and it turns out you are not suitable then not only is it a waste of everyone's time and my company's money, it makes me look stupid - it makes me look like I cannot weed out a crap programmer from a good one. Let alone the damage you could wreak before the penny drops that you aren't up to the task. Well, coding tests are _one_ way to avoid this, and like it or not, they have their place. I know companies who have spent a long time and a lot of cash cleaning up after a shitty programmer who churned out crap before anyone noticed what was happening. I could tell you some stories about people I've interviewed with CVs that are littered with first class qualifications and claims of industrial-strength C++ experience, but when push comes to shove they just cannot cut the mustard - thanks to a combination of language, logic and coding tests.
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You would be surprised at the number of developers applying for a job that can't actually program.
Todd Smith
lol we had a guy come in for a half day once, after he had already had 2 interviews (which I wasn't in). We sat him down in front of a PC running Visual Studio and he just looked blankly and said he had only ever used Word.
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the sentence is not bad - but I guess they meant to write "DONNER UND BLITZ" - "thunder and flash" as "blitzen" is the verb for "Blitz"-flash "sortieren" is "to sort" "the exit" is "Ausgang" "to exit" is "verlassen" ( = to leave) and: no offense taken
I suspect the error was intentional. Donner and Blitzen are two of santa's reindeer.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
I think this is fruitless. This stupid tests can only evaluate how nervous you can get when passing throught tests. I personally always performed bad on tests and always have been complimented about the projects I deliver. If you want to know someone can program or not, simply ask him sobe key concepts in the interview, that he will only know if he is actually a programmer. I think those tests are stupid. I'm with you on that. Regards, Fábio
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I suspect the error was intentional. Donner and Blitzen are two of santa's reindeer.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
oh really? Never read any "Santa" story in english - in german they are actually called "Donner" and "Blitz" just as the weather phenomenon also see here: Myth funny to see that this side got the "Blitzen" VS. "Blitz" wrong to ... even funnier I mistook "lightning" with "flash"
modified on Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:22 AM
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
To be honest, I've been on both ends of the stick...being hired as a developer and managing hiring of developers. Trust me, "simple" coding tests or exercises (usually no more than 30 min.) can tell you fathoms on a persons ability to code, problem solve and even their work ethics. If you say you've worked with SQL, vb.net, C#, html (yea, dating mayself), etc...I assume you can create a simple select statement, a simple loop and other minor problem solving items...by hand! This came from meeting to many "experts" using wysiwyg/scripting tools, their "personality" or "friends" to develop. I'll admit, the tools are time savers but when the sh%t hits the fan, I need a person who can lift the hood up and get his/her elbows dirty, problem solve and get the job done. When it came to tests, I usually ignore the minor syntactical errors as, trust me, you can see right off the bat who knows what they are doing and those who don't. My classic case in a preliminary interview with a candidate and I drop the "quick" test on his lap. 15 min. later, he comes out saying he's done (and me thinking...sweet, some one who knows something) only to see blank sheets! I go, do you need any clarification on the questions? and...wait...wait... "...this test is too easy, I'd just google the info..." Hmmmm...OK...thank you I'll caveat though, I've had tests where they drop theory on your lap, directly from the Microsoft manuals. I know how to code and problem solve but drop theory on my lap (7 questions, each full page) and my eyes glaze over. I had to deal with that in university and got through that. I was not going for my Masters (or certification) in the interview. That did frustrate me (even though I did complete it and got a good grade :oP ) "Simple" tests work and I feel are a necessary evil to weed out the pretenders to get to the guys and gals who can do the job... 2 cents Dave
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oh really? Never read any "Santa" story in english - in german they are actually called "Donner" and "Blitz" just as the weather phenomenon also see here: Myth funny to see that this side got the "Blitzen" VS. "Blitz" wrong to ... even funnier I mistook "lightning" with "flash"
modified on Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:22 AM
CKnig wrote:
also see here: Myth
... learn something new everyday. :cool: Does this mean I can go home from work now? :laugh:
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
I've had a number of those tests like you've described. What was infuriating was that it wasn't a test on good coding practices. I couldn't stop thinking "This question is moot, because I would never code something like this!" It was more like a trick test. When I've had verbal programming tests, or tests based on code that was actually used I've done fine. I'm planning on writing & then studying code snigglets that can be found on these exams prior to my next job search. I can definitely appreciate your anger.
Mike Goldweber
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Hmmm... I did write my version in C...
# define pour for... My first (evil) thought wasperl -e "print ( join ( \" \" , sort ( @ARGV ) ) )" 1 3 2 6 5 4but it does string sorting (stupid scripting language :mad: ). Then I considered using C# and aList.Sort, but decided it might still be too smartassy, and I was only just learning C# then anyway.Here's a batch file bubble sort[^]. :cool:
The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader | Twitter
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I've had a number of those tests like you've described. What was infuriating was that it wasn't a test on good coding practices. I couldn't stop thinking "This question is moot, because I would never code something like this!" It was more like a trick test. When I've had verbal programming tests, or tests based on code that was actually used I've done fine. I'm planning on writing & then studying code snigglets that can be found on these exams prior to my next job search. I can definitely appreciate your anger.
Mike Goldweber
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Here's a batch file bubble sort[^]. :cool:
The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader | Twitter
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Applied for job through agency for Snr .Net developer. Interview at agency - usual fare, went through CV, couple of the usual questions (you know, 'where do you want to be in five years?' 'What are your strengths and weaknesses?' All fine and dandy. Tee up interview with client. Then send me a programming test - probably an hour or two's work to write a completely unrealistic bit of code. Which apparently is going to be marked(!) and given to the client. What's the point? I've been developing for 30 f*88(*&ing years, for god's sake - what the hell is a simple coding exercise going to tell anyone (other than I don't have a life and can spend my evenings writing some trivial crud instead of playing HL2DM? This is the first time this has happened for ages - do other agencies still do this? I thought it was a thing of the past! trouble is, that I know this job is advertised through other agencies that do not do such a test - so it is unlikely that my application is ever going to appear better than anyone else's just because there's a bit of coding that's been marked (by whom, I know not!) dammitalltohellandback it makes me MAD.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Even worse (IMO): 15 years progressive, full-time experience developing Web applications across a broad range of industries, and I recently had a recruiter (who sounded like he was about half my age) ask me the "M&M's" question... You know, "If the assignment was to manufacture M&M candies, how would you go about doing this?" WAS HE JOKING??? I remember being warned about this question way back in grad school (I also have an MBA), but that was so long ago I couldn't remember any of the fun "trick" answers, of course... Like a complete idiot, I actually tried to come up with some kind of an answer for this kid, but he kept going with follow-up questions on this topic for about 15 minutes until I'd finally had enough. I passed on the job (which was for .NET development, not making candy... go figure)...
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My philosophy (when recruiting) has always been to have people on probation. I explain, before offering a job, exactly what the expectations are regarding their ability - what the role entails, etc. And I make it clear that I will terminate them if they are not capable, so they should withdraw their application if they feel they may not be able to perform to my expectation, or they may find themselves sacked. Surely that is the way to go - I don't want to have to try to ascertain someone's ability in a few minutes, I don;t think it reasonable to expect anyone to demonstrate their ability in a few minutes. So if they want to lie (or exaggerate) on their resume - then that's a risk they are taking. So far I have only had one person actually call up post interview and say 'nope - I don't think I can do the job (he gave himself 9/10 for Delphi Programming, but admitted that he'd only dabbled at home a bit) and I have only had to sack one person within the probationary period (amongst other things, he typed in a whole load of .ini file information with letter Os instead of zeros and couldn't see what was wrong, and developed a utility application using a pirated copy of Delphi 5 (we used 4) that he installed on his work PC, and put it live without going through any of our testing procedures.) He is now an IT Manager (figures!)
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
I don't know how it is oversea's, but until our (recent) change of government that was pretty difficult to do... we pretty much had legislation that made trial period contracts either illegal/void, or that just made it way too difficult to terminate someone anyway. Stupid, I know, but that's the sort of thing our left wing Labour governments do. We recently got a National government again and they've just passed legislation to make 3 month contracts doable again... the problem with this is that when you hire any developer, even a good one, to work on systems the size of the ones we work on, and learn all our tools and methods etc. 3 moths usually still isn't enough to tell if they're really any good... although you should've figured out if they can code by then.
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Au contraire - the people that are good enough to get to work somewhere where they are treated like people and not cattle will avoid you like the plague and you will end up with a team of geeks who canpass tests but are probably crap when it comes to thinking outside the oblong
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Father Christmas wrote:
Au contraire - the people that are good enough to get to work somewhere where they are treated like people and not cattle will avoid you like the plague and you will end up with a team of geeks who canpass tests but are probably crap when it comes to thinking outside the oblong
Thankfully the reality here is far from what you describe.
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For an experienced developer I think that is a naive attitude. People lie on their CVs all the time - this isn't anything new - some people will dress up anything to make themselves look better. Recruitment agencies don't help as I'm sure they encourage people to apply for jobs they are not fully-qualified for - any chance for their percentage. If I interview you and it turns out you are not suitable then not only is it a waste of everyone's time and my company's money, it makes me look stupid - it makes me look like I cannot weed out a crap programmer from a good one. Let alone the damage you could wreak before the penny drops that you aren't up to the task. Well, coding tests are _one_ way to avoid this, and like it or not, they have their place. I know companies who have spent a long time and a lot of cash cleaning up after a shitty programmer who churned out crap before anyone noticed what was happening. I could tell you some stories about people I've interviewed with CVs that are littered with first class qualifications and claims of industrial-strength C++ experience, but when push comes to shove they just cannot cut the mustard - thanks to a combination of language, logic and coding tests.
Rob Caldecott wrote:
Recruitment agencies don't help as I'm sure they encourage people to apply for jobs they are not fully-qualified for
True - and again if you read my original post (and the subject) I was talking about a test set BY THE AGENCY - and we're note talking a trivial 'write a function to sort an array' but an OO Application to perform weighted searching of web pages.
Rob Caldecott wrote:
If I interview you and it turns out you are not suitable then not only is it a waste of everyone's time and my company's money, it makes me look stupid
So you hire everyone you interview? Maybe you are stupid :)
Rob Caldecott wrote:
I know companies who have spent a long time and a lot of cash cleaning up after a sh***y programmer who churned out crap before anyone noticed what was happening.
These are bad companies who are obviously not doing code reviews - getting around the fact that our internal processes are poor by setting programming tests at interview?
Rob Caldecott wrote:
could tell you some stories about people I've interviewed with CVs that are littered with first class qualifications and claims of industrial-strength C++ experience, but when push comes to shove they just cannot cut the mustard - thanks to a combination of language, logic and coding tests.
So you don't actualy know they couldn't cut the proverbial mustard - just that they couldn't do the tests? And yes, sure, I'm playing devil's advocate a little here - it IS possible to include sensible tests at interview - someone pointed here http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html[^] an his coding tests (and more importantly the way he handles the process) would be fine.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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At least you had programming test. I've been in last 3-4 months on several tests where only psychologists decided who will be hired and who won't, without technical questions at all. I understand that IQ and some personality tests could be useful, but some are just pointless! I'll mention one gem: "What is more important to you, to have better relation with leader/boss or with co-workers?" No middle path, black or white answers only.
I had one of them sprung on my after two interviews. Lots of multiple choice questions with very black/white answers which, in the real world, I would need to ask for more information on. Stupid questions like "You're at a party where you don't know anyone except the host. Do You a) Just walk up to people and introduce yourself, b) Hand around the host and wait to be introduced, c) Stay as long as is polite then leave quietly without speaking to many people at all. No d) get outrageously drunk and drop your daks! Whose party is it (close friend, work colleague, prime minister? What sort o party?> fancy dress? Street? Bondage? I was really p*ssed off at being told the test should take between 30 and 60 minutes - this is after about 2 hours of interviews remember, with no warning prior, so I sat down and randomly checked the answers through the 30 or so questions. Apparently I got one of the best social aptitude results they'd ever had! Shows what a waste of space that one was, because it must be obvious what a misanthropic bastard I really am!
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')