Why... [modified]

[realJSOP]

Does Expression Blend cost money? Like $600/seat? I refuse to spend that kind of money for development at home, especially for something that's probably a half-assed tool to start out with.

"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001

[realJSOP]

Rohde wrote:

I actually think WPF is way nicer than Winforms

In what possible way is it "nicer" than winforms? I want to put some controls on a freakin' form. WPF apparently can't do that (through the VS IDE). If I can't use the tools Ive already paid for to implement one of Microsoft's new half-implemented technologies, what the f*ck good is it?

"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001

[realJSOP]

If the tools don't work, what the hell good is the technology?

"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001

[Rohde]

If you're having problems with arranging controls on the form, you need to read up on the various layout managers. Although, yes the designer sucks.

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"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, `Who is destroying the world?' You are."
-Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand

[peterchen]

No, it could suck more, or suck less. I guess Microsoft opted for consistency.

Burning Chrome ^ | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist

[Marc Clifton]

Nishant Sivakumar wrote:

What a lot of folks do is to create UI in Blend, and then copy/paste the Xaml into VS.

I'm sorry, but that is totally lame. Not that I expect an IDE to do everything, and in fact would actually prefer that the VS IDE were pared down a bit--all this massive integration ends up, IMO, as a badly put together product (TFS comes to mind). I guess all this XML stuff makes is a different world and Microsoft hasn't figured out yet how to support it in a seamless, professional, manner. Marc

Available for consulting and full time employment. Contact me. Interacx

[Christian Graus]

Blend really only helps if you have a lot of time to learn how it works, and then only for layout of XAML, that's what it is, a WYSIWYG UI editor.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Ennis Ray Lynch Jr]

I helped you out with a 5. Until more developers master the fundamentals no Windows Technology will matter much. All they are doing is lowering the bar making it easier for people to come in and write bad code. .NET 2.0 was mostly perfect. I think MS should have just focused on fixing and improving the framework rather than adding new "features". But then that is my opinion.

Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego.

[Roger Wright]

Rob Graham wrote:

It's a damn good thing Microsoft doesn't build bridges.

Oh, I don't know. If they did design bridges, they'd probably put them under things, instead of over them. That would make them more survivable in the inevitable crash.

"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"

[Serguei]

And if the developers are incompetent what the hell good are the tools?

[Super Lloyd]

I don't know WWF. But I think it's you, probably you are too old to adapt? Or maybe this is the whole XAML thing? I, myself, I will admit it has a certain tendancy to raise the expectency only to unexpectedly frustratingly refusing to deliver at times...

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.

[realJSOP]

Super Lloyd wrote:

But I think it's you, probably you are too old to adapt?

If that were the case, I would still be doing C++. And being able/unable to adapt doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the current tools (the WPF designer in the IDE) suck.

"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001

[User of Users Group]

If you think WPF is bad after all those years, give a go to the lightweight Silverlight. Your browser will start hanging more than ever before, 8GB of RAM won't help you and be prepared for some odd UIs, designed for Vista-bloat candy lovers. And it is 2009.. wow. Redmond has been high on flowers since 2006.. it is darn obvious, but as with all MS-related, they managed to sell it real well via blogs, PDCs etc to the 'high-tech' Java Swing 4.0 + XML crowd. No wonder Adobe and Google people keep laughing their socks off.. [On the topic of adaptation and catching up, it is the .NET crowd that is light years behind. It takes some adaptation, decades and playing with all their bloat to realise that fact :) Please continue to invalidate an entire cache with a WPF button and simple control, it is Space Oddysey 2010 after all ]

modified on Monday, December 29, 2008 6:21 AM

[Paul A Howes]

I totally agree with you on this. At work, my boss thinks that WPF and WWF are the best inventions ever. Personally, I can't stand either one, and I have used both in fairly involved applications. One thing that makes WPF a little more bearable is to code the UI directly in C# rather than using XAML. I know it's a throw-back to the pre-UI designer days, but the fact that nothing is hidden and you can understand all of the connections is a wonderful thing. you don't have half defined in the XAML and half in the code-behind with the (non-) Intellisense being the only thing to connect the two in the editor. Give it a go in plain C# and see if that doesn't help restore a little of your sanity.

Paul

A .NET developer who now drinks the Ruby and Cocoa Koolaid.

[Jim Crafton]

Shog9 wrote:

old versions

Old? You haven't used it recently - it hasn't changed much! :)

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[Jim Crafton]

But that doesn't really answer the question. If Microsoft fails at *multiple* levels to provide consistent, useful, *stable* tools for *its* technology, what is the point of hassling with it? Other than just playing around with new toys, that is.

¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog

[Nemanja Trifunovic]

John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:

...does WPF have to suck as bad as WWF?

At least WTL is robust and stable and resource editors work just fine.

Programming Blog utf8-cpp

[Scott Dorman]

John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:

In what possible way is it "nicer" than winforms? I want to put some controls on a freakin' form. WPF apparently can't do that (through the VS IDE). If I can't use the tools Ive already paid for to implement one of Microsoft's new half-implemented technologies, what the f*ck good is it?

The problem is that the "design experience" with WPF is completely different than it was with WinForms because everything in WPF is compositional in nature. The piece that's missing is an "intermediate" design experience that allows you to design a WPF interface in the same way you would as a WinForms interface but with limitations on what you can actually make the XAML do. The thing about WPF and XAML that makes it nicer than WinForms is the level of customizability you get for making the controls look how you need them to look without sacrificing functionality or forcing you to create your own. For instance, if you need the behavior of a list box but want it to display pictures in a film-strip style layout you use a list box as the actual UI control and then style it to look like a film-strip. While I don't do a lot of WPF work, the people in my company that do don't rely on either Blend or the VS editor and write the XAML mostly by hand. I think it will still be a little while before we get a design experience that feels as "natural" as the WinForms experience, partly due to the learning curve for WPF and partly due to the lack of good tool support.

Scott Dorman

Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]

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Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai

[Super Lloyd]

Just taunting! ;) You should watch the video at the bottom of this blog: http://karlshifflett.wordpress.com/xaml-power-toys/[^] It made me realize the XAML designer is better that I thought! Anyway I mostly just type in my XAML...

A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.

[BillWoodruff]

User of Users Group wrote:

high on flowers

Hi, I am curious to ask you about this interesting phrase and its source. thanks, Bill

"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact." Milan Kundera in Testaments Trahis