Why... [modified]
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
When the freakin' IDE breaks when you're trying to design a form, it sucks.
That's really a VS issue there. Have you tried using Expression Blend? It's a lot stabler than VS is for designing WPF UI. What a lot of folks do is to create UI in Blend, and then copy/paste the Xaml into VS.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
What a lot of folks do is to create UI in Blend, and then copy/paste the Xaml into VS.
I'm sorry, but that is totally lame. Not that I expect an IDE to do everything, and in fact would actually prefer that the VS IDE were pared down a bit--all this massive integration ends up, IMO, as a badly put together product (TFS comes to mind). I guess all this XML stuff makes is a different world and Microsoft hasn't figured out yet how to support it in a seamless, professional, manner. Marc
Available for consulting and full time employment. Contact me. Interacx
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Does Expression Blend cost money? Like $600/seat? I refuse to spend that kind of money for development at home, especially for something that's probably a half-assed tool to start out with.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Blend really only helps if you have a lot of time to learn how it works, and then only for layout of XAML, that's what it is, a WYSIWYG UI editor.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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...does WPF have to suck as bad as WWF? [EDIT] Ouch - those '1' votes really hurt. I think I'm going to cry... not. Almost an hour later, and WPF still sucks. All the '1' votes in the world won't change that.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001modified on Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:21 AM
I helped you out with a 5. Until more developers master the fundamentals no Windows Technology will matter much. All they are doing is lowering the bar making it easier for people to come in and write bad code. .NET 2.0 was mostly perfect. I think MS should have just focused on fixing and improving the framework rather than adding new "features". But then that is my opinion.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego. -
That's a pretty crappy excuse, you must admit. If the VS design time support is unstable, why should anyone bother getting Yet-Another-Microsoft-Tool just to begin learning it? Why should you have to use two different tools, one to "design" the appearance, and another to program the behavior. I agree with John: if the native tool set doesn't work,then it is beta crap that Microsoft is dumping on customers. The fact that they have Expression Blend working makes the offense of not fixing the VS designers in a service pack even less forgivable. This seems to be the only industry in which a supplier can sell defective product to its customers and not get sued. It's a damn good thing Microsoft doesn't build bridges.
Rob Graham wrote:
It's a damn good thing Microsoft doesn't build bridges.
Oh, I don't know. If they did design bridges, they'd probably put them under things, instead of over them. That would make them more survivable in the inevitable crash.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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If the tools don't work, what the hell good is the technology?
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
...does WPF have to suck as bad as WWF? [EDIT] Ouch - those '1' votes really hurt. I think I'm going to cry... not. Almost an hour later, and WPF still sucks. All the '1' votes in the world won't change that.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001modified on Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:21 AM
I don't know WWF. But I think it's you, probably you are too old to adapt? Or maybe this is the whole XAML thing? I, myself, I will admit it has a certain tendancy to raise the expectency only to unexpectedly frustratingly refusing to deliver at times...
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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I don't know WWF. But I think it's you, probably you are too old to adapt? Or maybe this is the whole XAML thing? I, myself, I will admit it has a certain tendancy to raise the expectency only to unexpectedly frustratingly refusing to deliver at times...
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
Super Lloyd wrote:
But I think it's you, probably you are too old to adapt?
If that were the case, I would still be doing C++. And being able/unable to adapt doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the current tools (the WPF designer in the IDE) suck.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Super Lloyd wrote:
But I think it's you, probably you are too old to adapt?
If that were the case, I would still be doing C++. And being able/unable to adapt doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the current tools (the WPF designer in the IDE) suck.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001If you think WPF is bad after all those years, give a go to the lightweight Silverlight. Your browser will start hanging more than ever before, 8GB of RAM won't help you and be prepared for some odd UIs, designed for Vista-bloat candy lovers. And it is 2009.. wow. Redmond has been high on flowers since 2006.. it is darn obvious, but as with all MS-related, they managed to sell it real well via blogs, PDCs etc to the 'high-tech' Java Swing 4.0 + XML crowd. No wonder Adobe and Google people keep laughing their socks off.. [On the topic of adaptation and catching up, it is the .NET crowd that is light years behind. It takes some adaptation, decades and playing with all their bloat to realise that fact :) Please continue to invalidate an entire cache with a WPF button and simple control, it is Space Oddysey 2010 after all ]
modified on Monday, December 29, 2008 6:21 AM
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...does WPF have to suck as bad as WWF? [EDIT] Ouch - those '1' votes really hurt. I think I'm going to cry... not. Almost an hour later, and WPF still sucks. All the '1' votes in the world won't change that.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001modified on Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:21 AM
I totally agree with you on this. At work, my boss thinks that WPF and WWF are the best inventions ever. Personally, I can't stand either one, and I have used both in fairly involved applications. One thing that makes WPF a little more bearable is to code the UI directly in C# rather than using XAML. I know it's a throw-back to the pre-UI designer days, but the fact that nothing is hidden and you can understand all of the connections is a wonderful thing. you don't have half defined in the XAML and half in the code-behind with the (non-) Intellisense being the only thing to connect the two in the editor. Give it a go in plain C# and see if that doesn't help restore a little of your sanity.
Paul
A .NET developer who now drinks the Ruby and Cocoa Koolaid.
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
Non-standard and counter-intuitive menus and controls, a layout that varies from run to run without rhyme or reason, and a color scheme that is unusable unless you're under the age of 30 and have a very high-end flat panel.
Agreed. Keeps reminding me of old versions of Blender; a UI written by programmers who spent too much time with one particular tool and decided to use it for everything.
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
Shog9 wrote:
old versions
Old? You haven't used it recently - it hasn't changed much! :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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But that doesn't really answer the question. If Microsoft fails at *multiple* levels to provide consistent, useful, *stable* tools for *its* technology, what is the point of hassling with it? Other than just playing around with new toys, that is.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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...does WPF have to suck as bad as WWF? [EDIT] Ouch - those '1' votes really hurt. I think I'm going to cry... not. Almost an hour later, and WPF still sucks. All the '1' votes in the world won't change that.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001modified on Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:21 AM
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
...does WPF have to suck as bad as WWF?
At least WTL is robust and stable and resource editors work just fine.
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Rohde wrote:
I actually think WPF is way nicer than Winforms
In what possible way is it "nicer" than winforms? I want to put some controls on a freakin' form. WPF apparently can't do that (through the VS IDE). If I can't use the tools Ive already paid for to implement one of Microsoft's new half-implemented technologies, what the f*ck good is it?
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
In what possible way is it "nicer" than winforms? I want to put some controls on a freakin' form. WPF apparently can't do that (through the VS IDE). If I can't use the tools Ive already paid for to implement one of Microsoft's new half-implemented technologies, what the f*ck good is it?
The problem is that the "design experience" with WPF is completely different than it was with WinForms because everything in WPF is compositional in nature. The piece that's missing is an "intermediate" design experience that allows you to design a WPF interface in the same way you would as a WinForms interface but with limitations on what you can actually make the XAML do. The thing about WPF and XAML that makes it nicer than WinForms is the level of customizability you get for making the controls look how you need them to look without sacrificing functionality or forcing you to create your own. For instance, if you need the behavior of a list box but want it to display pictures in a film-strip style layout you use a list box as the actual UI control and then style it to look like a film-strip. While I don't do a lot of WPF work, the people in my company that do don't rely on either Blend or the VS editor and write the XAML mostly by hand. I think it will still be a little while before we get a design experience that feels as "natural" as the WinForms experience, partly due to the learning curve for WPF and partly due to the lack of good tool support.
Scott Dorman
Microsoft® MVP - Visual C# | MCPD President - Tampa Bay IASA [Blog][Articles][Forum Guidelines]
Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
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Super Lloyd wrote:
But I think it's you, probably you are too old to adapt?
If that were the case, I would still be doing C++. And being able/unable to adapt doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the current tools (the WPF designer in the IDE) suck.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Just taunting! ;) You should watch the video at the bottom of this blog: http://karlshifflett.wordpress.com/xaml-power-toys/[^] It made me realize the XAML designer is better that I thought! Anyway I mostly just type in my XAML...
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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If you think WPF is bad after all those years, give a go to the lightweight Silverlight. Your browser will start hanging more than ever before, 8GB of RAM won't help you and be prepared for some odd UIs, designed for Vista-bloat candy lovers. And it is 2009.. wow. Redmond has been high on flowers since 2006.. it is darn obvious, but as with all MS-related, they managed to sell it real well via blogs, PDCs etc to the 'high-tech' Java Swing 4.0 + XML crowd. No wonder Adobe and Google people keep laughing their socks off.. [On the topic of adaptation and catching up, it is the .NET crowd that is light years behind. It takes some adaptation, decades and playing with all their bloat to realise that fact :) Please continue to invalidate an entire cache with a WPF button and simple control, it is Space Oddysey 2010 after all ]
modified on Monday, December 29, 2008 6:21 AM
User of Users Group wrote:
high on flowers
Hi, I am curious to ask you about this interesting phrase and its source. thanks, Bill
"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact." Milan Kundera in Testaments Trahis
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User of Users Group wrote:
high on flowers
Hi, I am curious to ask you about this interesting phrase and its source. thanks, Bill
"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact." Milan Kundera in Testaments Trahis
(bang, slam, bash).. edited to protect the innocent MS.
modified on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:13 PM
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User of Users Group wrote:
high on flowers
Hi, I am curious to ask you about this interesting phrase and its source. thanks, Bill
"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact." Milan Kundera in Testaments Trahis
and the bit I forgot: Any MSDN blog you read, especially from PMs, contains something along the lines of: "and it contains performance and reliability improvements..". Eespecially on SP1s, Beta 2s, etc, v4.0s and 2010s. Surely by now, everyone is aware it means the source itself is: Either 99.9999% high or over-promising yet again (about 20 times a year for 8 years ). Unattractive any way you look at it, and high time to do something about it (like specialise in 'banana-sales', it might sound odd, but I don't see a reason why it wouldn't produce better quality or more rewarding output after such a work-wasting exercise, even though it pays the bills TM).
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(bang, slam, bash).. edited to protect the innocent MS.
modified on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:13 PM
Hi User of Users ! My sincere thanks for your very thoughtful and educational replies to my brief query ! I have yet to "jump in the water" where the WPF water-lilies arise from the muck of XML, and I am still convinced we need a better (lean and mean) 2d retained-mode graphics engine with superior anti-aliasing, but then I am an old fogey (perhaps the used of the well-used) from the beyond who has no appetite for the eye candy of these times. I used to work at Adobe, by the way, and have been meaning to take a look-see at what's happened with all the stuff from Macromedia and SVG and AIR, etc. best, Bill
"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact." Milan Kundera in Testaments Trahis
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Hi User of Users ! My sincere thanks for your very thoughtful and educational replies to my brief query ! I have yet to "jump in the water" where the WPF water-lilies arise from the muck of XML, and I am still convinced we need a better (lean and mean) 2d retained-mode graphics engine with superior anti-aliasing, but then I am an old fogey (perhaps the used of the well-used) from the beyond who has no appetite for the eye candy of these times. I used to work at Adobe, by the way, and have been meaning to take a look-see at what's happened with all the stuff from Macromedia and SVG and AIR, etc. best, Bill
"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact." Milan Kundera in Testaments Trahis
Thanks for listening :) And you're most welcome. [ping me offline with reply button and email address.. 2D stuff is doable, and far beyond that. Few samples out there that demonstrate how .NET can really fly, without GDI+ and without WPF ]
modified on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 5:13 PM
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I totally agree with you on this. At work, my boss thinks that WPF and WWF are the best inventions ever. Personally, I can't stand either one, and I have used both in fairly involved applications. One thing that makes WPF a little more bearable is to code the UI directly in C# rather than using XAML. I know it's a throw-back to the pre-UI designer days, but the fact that nothing is hidden and you can understand all of the connections is a wonderful thing. you don't have half defined in the XAML and half in the code-behind with the (non-) Intellisense being the only thing to connect the two in the editor. Give it a go in plain C# and see if that doesn't help restore a little of your sanity.
Paul
A .NET developer who now drinks the Ruby and Cocoa Koolaid.
Paul A. Howes wrote:
One thing that makes WPF a little more bearable is to code the UI directly in C# rather than using XAML.
Hi Paul, A most intriguing remark. Do you, by any chance, happen to have a link to an on-line example of this flavour ? best, Bill
"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact." Milan Kundera in Testaments Trahis