Kids & God
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Christian Graus wrote:
you're essentially asking him to BECOME an atheist
What, not telling your kids about Gods before they are in their teens is atheist indoctrination? :confused:
Cheers, Vıkram.
Stand up to be seen. Speak up to be heard. Shut up to be appreciated.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
What, not telling your kids about Gods before they are in their teens is atheist indoctrination?
Of course it is. If you choose to tell your kids there is no God, or to act as if there is no God, then they are being raised as athiests. Kids as a whole tend to take on their parents values, and if you hide your values, the ones you show, will be what they take on.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I disagree Christian. If you don't know why you have faith then how do you know you have faith?
Isn't that what I said ? Did I get them reversed ? I meant the parent who tells their kids what to believe and not to ask questions,has no idea what they believe.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
What, not telling your kids about Gods before they are in their teens is atheist indoctrination?
Of course it is. If you choose to tell your kids there is no God, or to act as if there is no God, then they are being raised as athiests. Kids as a whole tend to take on their parents values, and if you hide your values, the ones you show, will be what they take on.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian, I said "not telling your kids about Gods" and you responded with "you choose to tell your kids there is no God". It was probably unintentional on your part, but you IMO there's a difference.
Cheers, Vıkram.
Stand up to be seen. Speak up to be heard. Shut up to be appreciated.
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My sister-in-law told me that her 5 year old asked where we all came from and she said God created us, without going into too fine a detail, which he accepted. Although I do plan to teach my son about God, if he takes into it or not is up to him. However, when did those of you who mentioned God brought it up?
1. Dear God, please put another holiday between Christmas and Easter. There is nothing good in there now. Amanda 2. Dear God, Thank you for the baby brother but what I asked for was a puppy. I never asked for anything before. You can look it up. Joyce 3. Dear Mr. God, I wish you would not make it so easy for people to come apart I had to have 3 stitches and a shot. Janet 4. God, I read the bible. What does beget mean? Nobody will tell me. Love Alison 5. Dear God, how did you know you were God? Who told you? Charlene 6. Dear God, is it true my father won't get in Heaven if he uses his golf words in the house? Anita 7. Dear God, I bet it's very hard for you to love all of everybody in the whole world. There are only 4 people in our family and I can never do it. Nancy 8. Dear God, I like the story about Noah the best of all of them. You really made up some good ones. I like walking on water, too. Glenn 9. Dear God, my Grandpa says you were around when he was a little boy. How far back do you go? Love, Dennis 10. Dear God, do you draw the lines around the countries? If you don't, who does? Nathan 11. Dear God, did you mean for giraffes to look like that or was it an accident? Norma 12. Dear God, in bible times, did they really talk that fancy? Jennifer 13. Dear God, how come you did all those miracles in the old days and don't do any now? Billy 14. Dear God, please send Dennis Clark to a different summer camp this year. Peter 15. Dear God, maybe Cain and Abel would not kill each other so much if they each had their own rooms. It works out OK with me and my brother. Larry 16. Dear God, I keep waiting for spring, but it never did come yet. What's up? Don't forget. Mark 17. Dear God, my brother told me about how you are born but it just doesn't sound right. What do you say? Marsha 18. Dear God, if you watch in Church on Sunday I will show you my new shoes. Barbara 19. Dear God, is Reverend Coe a friend of yours, or do you just know him through the business? Donny 20. Dear God, I do not think anybody could be a better God than you. Well, I just want you to know that. I am not just saying that because you are already God. Charles 21. Dear God, it is great the way you always get the stars in the right place. Why can't you do tha
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1. Dear God, please put another holiday between Christmas and Easter. There is nothing good in there now. Amanda 2. Dear God, Thank you for the baby brother but what I asked for was a puppy. I never asked for anything before. You can look it up. Joyce 3. Dear Mr. God, I wish you would not make it so easy for people to come apart I had to have 3 stitches and a shot. Janet 4. God, I read the bible. What does beget mean? Nobody will tell me. Love Alison 5. Dear God, how did you know you were God? Who told you? Charlene 6. Dear God, is it true my father won't get in Heaven if he uses his golf words in the house? Anita 7. Dear God, I bet it's very hard for you to love all of everybody in the whole world. There are only 4 people in our family and I can never do it. Nancy 8. Dear God, I like the story about Noah the best of all of them. You really made up some good ones. I like walking on water, too. Glenn 9. Dear God, my Grandpa says you were around when he was a little boy. How far back do you go? Love, Dennis 10. Dear God, do you draw the lines around the countries? If you don't, who does? Nathan 11. Dear God, did you mean for giraffes to look like that or was it an accident? Norma 12. Dear God, in bible times, did they really talk that fancy? Jennifer 13. Dear God, how come you did all those miracles in the old days and don't do any now? Billy 14. Dear God, please send Dennis Clark to a different summer camp this year. Peter 15. Dear God, maybe Cain and Abel would not kill each other so much if they each had their own rooms. It works out OK with me and my brother. Larry 16. Dear God, I keep waiting for spring, but it never did come yet. What's up? Don't forget. Mark 17. Dear God, my brother told me about how you are born but it just doesn't sound right. What do you say? Marsha 18. Dear God, if you watch in Church on Sunday I will show you my new shoes. Barbara 19. Dear God, is Reverend Coe a friend of yours, or do you just know him through the business? Donny 20. Dear God, I do not think anybody could be a better God than you. Well, I just want you to know that. I am not just saying that because you are already God. Charles 21. Dear God, it is great the way you always get the stars in the right place. Why can't you do tha
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Alduin wrote:
There is nothing wrong with mass murder. There is nothing wrong with torturing people for fun.
You certainly don't need religion or god(s) to figure out why these might be are generally considered wrong regardless of culture or religious background.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
modified on Friday, January 2, 2009 11:40 PM to unnuance it for Bassam.
If there is no god, what is right and wrong? What is the difference between killing a human and killing a cow or a head of lettuce? Humans are simply another life form with no intrinsic rights above that of any other. Right and wrong are merely arbitrary constructs that we come up with.
Some people sail through life on a bed of roses like a knife slicing through butter.
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If there is no god, what is right and wrong? What is the difference between killing a human and killing a cow or a head of lettuce? Humans are simply another life form with no intrinsic rights above that of any other. Right and wrong are merely arbitrary constructs that we come up with.
Some people sail through life on a bed of roses like a knife slicing through butter.
Alduin wrote:
If there is no god, what is right and wrong?
For the sake of argument let's consider that statement to be true (and for the record, I don't), then which set of right and wrong sent down from upon high by which god or gods through which prophets are the true right and wrong? They're all different and often conflict. And you lose points for saying the one true god which happens to be the one you believe in.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
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Alduin wrote:
If there is no god, what is right and wrong?
For the sake of argument let's consider that statement to be true (and for the record, I don't), then which set of right and wrong sent down from upon high by which god or gods through which prophets are the true right and wrong? They're all different and often conflict. And you lose points for saying the one true god which happens to be the one you believe in.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
I do happen to believe in a god for several reasons, but I wasn't advocating any particular god or religion. The question was meant as it is. If there is no god what is right or wrong? By what standard do we call something good or evil, right or wrong? It loses all value if there is no reference point that we can look at.
Some people sail through life on a bed of roses like a knife slicing through butter.
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This is plain dumb. Sorry, but a parent has no choice but to raise a child with a belief system. You're asking him to pretend to be an atheist for 15 years. Hell, you're essentially asking him to BECOME an atheist, because kids learn far more from what they see their parents DO, than what they choose to SAY.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Then it will be teaching, and not indoctrination.
Telling kids there is no God is indoctrinating them to atheism. There's no difference.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
Telling kids there is no God is indoctrinating them to atheism.
But telling kids that there may or may not be a God - you don't think so but other people do - is the truth. You happen to believe there is a god. But you are aware that there are many other world views - one God, many gods, no gods, scientology etc. etc. So giving your offspring the benefit of what you have learned, but with the honesty that there are many other views, is the only way.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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I do happen to believe in a god for several reasons, but I wasn't advocating any particular god or religion. The question was meant as it is. If there is no god what is right or wrong? By what standard do we call something good or evil, right or wrong? It loses all value if there is no reference point that we can look at.
Some people sail through life on a bed of roses like a knife slicing through butter.
Alduin wrote:
If there is no god what is right or wrong?
You do talk some bollocks! What in god's name has God got to do with right and wrong? You're no talking god - you're talking a person's interpretation of what they believe their god to consider right and wrong. Some god-fearing souls believe (in certain circumstances, like when they don't agree with them) that killing people is 'right'. Bollocks bollocks bollocks.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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I do happen to believe in a god for several reasons, but I wasn't advocating any particular god or religion. The question was meant as it is. If there is no god what is right or wrong? By what standard do we call something good or evil, right or wrong? It loses all value if there is no reference point that we can look at.
Some people sail through life on a bed of roses like a knife slicing through butter.
Alduin wrote:
If there is no god what is right or wrong? By what standard do we call something good or evil, right or wrong?
Most of the reasonable and common moral codes are common sense agreed to by the vast majority of humans. That code was invented by humans based on an innate morality that developed over our evolution (do you accept evolution?) from our social ancestors as ways to be able to live together in tribes peacefully. Gods were invented by humans to justify individuals to rule and pass judgment on those rules. Gods are an invention of humans, not the other way around.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
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Alduin wrote:
If there is no god what is right or wrong? By what standard do we call something good or evil, right or wrong?
Most of the reasonable and common moral codes are common sense agreed to by the vast majority of humans. That code was invented by humans based on an innate morality that developed over our evolution (do you accept evolution?) from our social ancestors as ways to be able to live together in tribes peacefully. Gods were invented by humans to justify individuals to rule and pass judgment on those rules. Gods are an invention of humans, not the other way around.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
That just comes back to my original point that if there is no god right/wrong and good/evil are mere societal constructs that ultimately have no meaning. It comes down to what society wants me to do or society does not want me to do and nothing else. If society (or the vast majority of people) say that it is all right to murder or torture then it becomes right and good. I believe in micro evolution, but not macro. It has never made sense to me. Beyond that it also comes down to my main point in my first message of this topic. For things that we do not see/experience (which you have to admit our beginning as humans falls into) it comes down to a matter of trust. Do I trust this group to know what they are talking about and do I trust them to tell me the truth. When I was in school and reading and learning about evolution many of the arguments for it were based on either stuff that had proven wrong (100+ years ago) or in some cases outright lies admitted as such by those that created them 40+ years ago. Yet those were still being taught as fact and evidence for evolution. I've also spent time looking at how much we've changed our beliefs about some fundemental rules in science over the course of the years. If scientists have such a hard time figuring out how things work in the here in now why would I expect them to accurately tell me what happened long ago? I wanted to add this point as well. To be fair I do look at religion in the same way especially my own. Part of what I believe constantly causes me to question what I believe and the assumptions that I make about things.
Some people sail through life on a bed of roses like a knife slicing through butter.
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Alduin wrote:
If there is no god what is right or wrong?
You do talk some bollocks! What in god's name has God got to do with right and wrong? You're no talking god - you're talking a person's interpretation of what they believe their god to consider right and wrong. Some god-fearing souls believe (in certain circumstances, like when they don't agree with them) that killing people is 'right'. Bollocks bollocks bollocks.
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
How is asking a question a lie or falsity? That doesn't make sense to me. I'll try to explain my reasoning though. If we look at the number "2" we recognize that is a symbol representing a pair of something. What if we didn't agree on the value of this symbol. What if I thought it had a value of 1, you thought it had a value of 3, another individual thought it had a value of 6 and so on and so forth. If we try to add "2" and "2" together we are each going to get a different result that is right in our own mind and wrong in the others. If it doesn't actually have a value then there is no right or wrong answer. Say we as a society say that the value of "2" is actually 4. We go from there and build different stuff based on that equation, but then several generations later they believe that the value of "2" is actually 5 instead of 4 and they try to interpret what we've done based on that and it completely screw up every calculation they try taking from us because our standards are different. When it comes to right and wrong if it isn't based on some standard then it is completely useless save as a whim of ours. If the standard is solely society as a whole then it will constantly shift and change and have little meaning save as a means of telling us what society wants us to do or not do. Maybe I didn't explain it well and maybe I'm simply confused (which happens plenty). Honestly though, if there is no god, what is right and wrong?
Some people sail through life on a bed of roses like a knife slicing through butter.
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That just comes back to my original point that if there is no god right/wrong and good/evil are mere societal constructs that ultimately have no meaning. It comes down to what society wants me to do or society does not want me to do and nothing else. If society (or the vast majority of people) say that it is all right to murder or torture then it becomes right and good. I believe in micro evolution, but not macro. It has never made sense to me. Beyond that it also comes down to my main point in my first message of this topic. For things that we do not see/experience (which you have to admit our beginning as humans falls into) it comes down to a matter of trust. Do I trust this group to know what they are talking about and do I trust them to tell me the truth. When I was in school and reading and learning about evolution many of the arguments for it were based on either stuff that had proven wrong (100+ years ago) or in some cases outright lies admitted as such by those that created them 40+ years ago. Yet those were still being taught as fact and evidence for evolution. I've also spent time looking at how much we've changed our beliefs about some fundemental rules in science over the course of the years. If scientists have such a hard time figuring out how things work in the here in now why would I expect them to accurately tell me what happened long ago? I wanted to add this point as well. To be fair I do look at religion in the same way especially my own. Part of what I believe constantly causes me to question what I believe and the assumptions that I make about things.
Some people sail through life on a bed of roses like a knife slicing through butter.
Alduin wrote:
It comes down to what society wants me to do or society does not want me to do and nothing else.
And your view comes down to what the "society" of your religion wants you to do and nothing more.
Alduin wrote:
For things that we do not see/experience (which you have to admit our beginning as humans falls into) it comes down to a matter of trust. Do I trust this group to know what they are talking about and do I trust them to tell me the truth. When I was in school and reading and learning about evolution many of the arguments for it were based on either stuff that had proven wrong (100+ years ago) or in some cases outright lies admitted as such by those that created them 40+ years ago.
And your belief in god comes down to trust that what you're told in a bunch of ancient writing is true. You obviously are confusing real science with what is popularly written about it or passed on through the prism of religious bias. The Bible other religious books are full of inconsistencies and self contradictions and things that are blatantly impossible yet people continue to believe and refuse to accept that which is readily demonstrable.
Alduin wrote:
To be fair I do look at religion in the same way especially my own. Part of what I believe constantly causes me to question what I believe and the assumptions that I make about things.
If you have to tinker with your religious beliefs, then they're not absolute and that's your entire argument for an absolute morality. Sorry, if you're not sure it's absolute, then it's probably not. I think I've invested all I want to say here on the subject.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke