This is defense? [modified]
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EliottA wrote:
Furthermore, the amount of deaths in comparison of Jew to Arab derived from War is incomparable.
Correct, Palestinians have been massacred over and over again.
EliottA wrote:
Umm yeah, except that is written by a person, not endorsed by the University.
What is this? Are you drinking man? That's the second post you make that's completely unrelated.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
modified on Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:18 PM
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Nope, Steve has the right of it.
well, no he doesn't. the entire world exhibited their opinion quite succinctly when refusing to condem homicide bombers, but bitched loudly when the wall was constructed to stop the homicide bombers. the rest of the world was silent when rockets were continually lobbed into Israel from Gaza, but now bitch when Israel tries to put a stop to it. yes there are people caught in the middle but if I lived in Israel I would my government to continue until Hamas was completely and totally exterminated.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
the entire world exhibited their opinion quite succinctly when refusing to condem homicide bombers,
My turn to say "horseshit", Mike. Some countries which are always anti-Israeli may have refused to do so but to say the "entire world" refused to condemn them is nonsense.
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Simple, I've been there, I know what its like, I know the conditions they live in, I know the conditions that the Israeli Army forced on them, and my neighbors have family there and I've got very reliable friends there. Every news feed I read I check with at least 2 others, if they all concur, I use it. What do you use other than rightist propaganda?
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Every news feed I read I check with at least 2 others, if they all concur, I use it. What do you use other than rightist propaganda?
Then I must assume (as you assumed), that you must use leftist propaganda? All I know is that the world news has so many pictures plastered on the news of "innocent" civilians being killed, especially women and children, that I wonder why there are no pictures of killed and maimed Israeli civilians being plastered all over? Has that not piqued your interest, or do you believe everything the media throws your way? Does "balanced reporting ever cross your mind." And the fact that you've "been there" doesn't mean squat for the PRESENT SITUATION! I've been to a lot of places too, and that would not make me an expert on what was happening there if war broke out!
AF Pilot
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How would Israel respond if another country tried to change its government by force? How would you respond if China (for example) tried to change the government of the US by force? If Israel was a peaceful and accommodating neighbour I doubt that rockets would be fired at them, nor that Hamas would have been elected. The whole of the Middle East needs to learn to live together in peace through peace, not to live together in peace through war.
Steve_Harris wrote:
If Israel was a peaceful and accommodating neighbour wasn't Jewish I doubt that rockets would be fired at them, nor that Hamas would have been elected.
I fixed that for you.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in the basements of the Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza City. Ironically, the hospital had been totally rebuilt bu Israel during the occupation. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2fd_1231732332[^] Hamas firing from school (video)[^] Mortars fired from UN school (video)[^] The Associated Press cited eyewitness accounts (not Israeli) that mobile mortars had been set up near the UN school that Israel bombed, and that they ran away immediately after launch. As to mosques, there have been very few protests of the bombing of mosques (there have been 5) this time around because the Islamists know they have been found out. They have used so many Mosques in so many countries, so many times, as military bases that it has become quite apparent that many, too many, houses of worship are also houses of death and destruction. Interestingly, about a week ago, the IAF struck the Ibrahim al-Maqadma mosque in northern Gaza's Beit Lahiya. Now, who, I wonder, was Ibrahim al-Maqadma - any ideas?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in the basements
Its not being used as a launch site. But it seems that its OK to bomb it and everyone there to get a couple of assholes and in the process get a few hundred civilians or aid workers. Very Machiavellian.
Oakman wrote:
they ran away immediately after launch
Again, they destroyed the school why? They ran away. What's the point of destroying the school if its no longer being used as a launch site other than as a lesson which smacks very much of terrorism. Ibrahim Al-Muqadima (preferred spelling btw) was a Hamas Operative. Not some holy man.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
the entire world exhibited their opinion quite succinctly when refusing to condem homicide bombers,
My turn to say "horseshit", Mike. Some countries which are always anti-Israeli may have refused to do so but to say the "entire world" refused to condemn them is nonsense.
Steve_Harris wrote:
Some countries which are always anti-Israeli may have refused to do so but to say the "entire world" refused to condemn them is nonsense.
name one.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Oakman wrote:
I do, indeed. And on the whole I have been glad of our argument. I have never learned anything from a man who agreed with me absolutely.
Good, I've known you to be an honorable man and you keep reaffirming it.
Oakman wrote:
No they aren't. Though armies normally exercise reasonable care in how they are used. The U.S. last used white phosphorous in its attack on Falujah in 2004.
Shame on the US for using it. Also, I'm not claiming this, the UN are and I'd take their word for the moment because they are being attacked with it over there and I'd expect that they have people more experienced than I am with weapons of war and can tell when a banned weapon is being used.
Oakman wrote:
When was the last time Hamas dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave the area because an attack is about to start? When was the last time Hamas dropped flashbangs before dropping real bombs in an attempt to clear civilians out of the target area?
According to several news agencies, they stopped doing that after the 5th day. Not only that, but there was the incident when they told about 100 civilians to hide in a particular building that was then shelled with impunity by the same band that told them to hide there killing dozens. Also, the first time they bombed the UN/UNRWA HQ in Gaza, the UN was quick in giving the IDF their coordinates with assurances from the IDF that that location will be as safe as a sanctuary. So when about 700 civilians (out of a fleeing 500,000) are hiding in the building, they get shelled again. Sorry, does not compute, if anything, the tactics are even worse.
Oakman wrote:
When a 16 year old throws a grenade at you, you'll be just as dead as if he was 35. Ditto a 10 year old.
If the children die in their homes because of an attack by the IAF, the kid is classified as a terrorist? Give me a break Jon. When a woman's child dies in her arm because she has no food to feed him because humanitarian aid is not coming through either because Israel is blocking it or destroying the vehicles transporting it, that's equivalent to being killed outright by a weapon. The trauma caused to so many thousands of children, how can that be justified?
Oakman wrote:
So all Hamas has to do to operate
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Shame on the US for using it.
American soldiers stayed alive because it was used. Not using it would have been stupid and dishonorable. One of the things I think that no-one who hasn't been in combat (among which we can number Stan and Ilion and Adnan) is that all weapons are inhumane. Whether you are firing a bolt-action carbine or dropping a bunker-buster from 20,000 feet, the idea is to take human life as quickly and easily as possible. And once the other guy is dead, it doesn't matter to him whether he died from a bayonet in the throat or Grad artillery rocket fired from 20 km away. People who dance around labeling this weapon OK and this one sometimes OK, and this one unacceptable, prove, imho, one thing - they have never been under fire.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
If the children die in their homes because of an attack by the IAF, the kid is classified as a terrorist? Give me a break Jon.
I'll apologise for saying that -- as soon as you link to where I did. Of course, kids die in War. It is a terrible price that is paid by the true civilians in Israel or Gaza, or Iraq, or Bosnia, or Georgia (and maybe soon, the Ukraine.) I have seen dead babies killed by the Viet Cong and I have seen dead babies killed by US forces (and maybe by me.) I still - 50 years later - have nightmares about what I saw. If I could wave my magic wand and stop all killing of innocents, do you think I would hesitate?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
completely equivalent to Hamas' tactics.
Granting for the sake of the argument, that you are correct, please remember that Israel has two condition for ceasing to fire: no more rockets into Israeli territory and no resupply of Hamas via Egypt. They have made it quite clear to the Egyptians who are trying to broker the cease fire (you said they'd never accept an Egyptian peace plan, as I remember) that this is the price Gaza must pay for peace. All Hamas has to do is agree and the war stops. All Israel needs to know is that they will not be allowed to start up again, and Hamas can do whatever it wants within its own borders. You suggest that won't be very pretty, but Israel won't care. If Hamas needs to be disciplined, replaced, or wiped out, let their Arab brethren do it - right now, of course, Jordan, the West Bank Palestinians, and Egypt are delighted that Israel has do
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I believe you are right. The first person to order nuclear weapons used in the middle east will be a Muslim terrorist. The next person to do so will be the Prime Minister of Israel and he's got somewhere between 200 and 400 available. To tell the truth, I am not sure that the above scenario is avoidable.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
To tell the truth, I am not sure that the above scenario is avoidable.
Depends on how Obama deals with Iran. But I too think it's just a matter of time until some jihadi somewhere gets their hands on a wad of uranium. It's a scarey world these days. Ya know, when I was a kid, I thought about the old Chinese proverb "may you live in interesting times" and I thought "man, I wish I did". Now that I most certainly do, I miss the good ol' boring days. Then again, the good ol' boring days were probably only that way because I didn't see what was happening in the world.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Oakman wrote:
Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in the basements
Its not being used as a launch site. But it seems that its OK to bomb it and everyone there to get a couple of assholes and in the process get a few hundred civilians or aid workers. Very Machiavellian.
Oakman wrote:
they ran away immediately after launch
Again, they destroyed the school why? They ran away. What's the point of destroying the school if its no longer being used as a launch site other than as a lesson which smacks very much of terrorism. Ibrahim Al-Muqadima (preferred spelling btw) was a Hamas Operative. Not some holy man.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Its not being used as a launch site
The first thing you do, the very first, is eliminate command and control. Thats why Hamas HQ is hidden under a hospital, and it is why every patient in that hospital is in danger.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Again, they destroyed the school why? They ran away
The bomb run was long over before the AP report was made. AP investigated only because Hamas made such a big deal out of the lack of provocation.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Ibrahim Al-Muqadima (preferred spelling btw) was a Hamas Operative. Not some holy man.
And yet they named a mosque after him. You think that maybe, just maybe, there were weapons inside that holy place?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Not without a serious death toll on their side as well.
That sounds like you think Hamas is holding back. I find that awfully hard to believe.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Not at all. I think Hamas is at its limits for now, but because of the way Israel has handled the issue, I'm afraid they have sent people to join their ranks in droves MUCH better and faster than any propaganda Hamas might have used. I meant the use of Nuke in their backyard, they'd surely be hurting their own as well.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Oakman wrote:
To tell the truth, I am not sure that the above scenario is avoidable.
Depends on how Obama deals with Iran. But I too think it's just a matter of time until some jihadi somewhere gets their hands on a wad of uranium. It's a scarey world these days. Ya know, when I was a kid, I thought about the old Chinese proverb "may you live in interesting times" and I thought "man, I wish I did". Now that I most certainly do, I miss the good ol' boring days. Then again, the good ol' boring days were probably only that way because I didn't see what was happening in the world.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
BoneSoft wrote:
But I too think it's just a matter of time until some jihadi somewhere gets their hands on a wad of uranium. It's a scarey world these days.
My guess is Pakistan is the supplier, not Iran, but it sure is scarey. It's one of the reasons I live in a rural area.
BoneSoft wrote:
Then again, the good ol' boring days were probably only that way because I didn't see what was happening in the world.
Problem was that while it was boring over here, the world was pouring money into the hands of a bunch of nomads whose idea of civilization was to remember to wipe their ass with the fingers of one hand and eat with the fingers of the other. And honorable warfare meant not to fuck the other guy's wives after you killed them. Unfortunately these guys became so rich that they threw out the relatively civilized rulers of the Arab world and set themselves up in their place.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You really don't have a clue as to what the hell is going on there do you?
yeah --- Israel is going to do what the people of Gaza (if they truly want peace) should have done long ago --- remove everything that is Hamas. What are they supposed to do in fighting back --- use water pistols? You and I both know that if an Israeli soldier (one in uniform, unlike the terrorists of Hamas), were captured, he would be skinned alive and have his throat slit, then his body would be dragged around behind a vehicle being driven by Hamas. Just wake up to the real world, will you. The ones who have control over this whole mess are THE PEOPLE OF GAZA. Do they want peace or not? Ridding themselves of the terrorists is a good start, don't you think? And no, I am not Stan. But I've lived long enough in this world to know that war is utter brutality, especially for those on the losing side. Even in the worst of wars, the civilians knew enough to TRY and get out of the way of the fighting. This is the reality of war. I never said it was nice.
AF Pilot
Reagan Conservative wrote:
You and I both know that if an Israeli soldier (one in uniform, unlike the terrorists of Hamas), were captured, he would be skinned alive and have his throat slit, then his body would be dragged around behind a vehicle being driven by Hamas.
Actually, what you just described was something the Israelis had done to a Palestinian boy[^] a few years ago (2004). Someone was able to get pictures of it and the UN condemned the action, which the Israeli government said that they would look into. Nothing else came out of it. Now you need to smell what you're shoveling. :rolleyes:
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Every news feed I read I check with at least 2 others, if they all concur, I use it. What do you use other than rightist propaganda?
Then I must assume (as you assumed), that you must use leftist propaganda? All I know is that the world news has so many pictures plastered on the news of "innocent" civilians being killed, especially women and children, that I wonder why there are no pictures of killed and maimed Israeli civilians being plastered all over? Has that not piqued your interest, or do you believe everything the media throws your way? Does "balanced reporting ever cross your mind." And the fact that you've "been there" doesn't mean squat for the PRESENT SITUATION! I've been to a lot of places too, and that would not make me an expert on what was happening there if war broke out!
AF Pilot
Generally, I do lean towards the left but I'm not so far gone to walk in what you might consider the "dark side". I'm wholeheartedly a progressive and not a conservative. But I try my best to listen to both sides before I judge and I apply that mentality to the news.
Reagan Conservative wrote:
All I know is that the world news has so many pictures plastered on the news of "innocent" civilians being killed, especially women and children, that I wonder why there are no pictures of killed and maimed Israeli civilians being plastered all over? Has that not piqued your interest, or do you believe everything the media throws your way? Does "balanced reporting ever cross your mind."
Blah blah blah blah. Its like you're trying to say I'm with Hamas. I'm not. I'm against the level of escalation Israel is using. Unlike what you and several others might believe, I hope for a peaceful solution and existence. Also, just FYI, I get as pissed off when Hamas or any other militant organization does what it does, its downright despicable, but what a coincidence, the IDF is doing the exact same thing.
Reagan Conservative wrote:
And the fact that you've "been there" doesn't mean squat for the PRESENT SITUATION! I've been to a lot of places too, and that would not make me an expert on what was happening there if war broke out!
It means that I know where they're coming from, but fine, I'll play along. My father-in-law is the President of the ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross), he gets very graphic and very detailed reports. That's my best and most arbitrary source of information.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Not at all. I think Hamas is at its limits for now, but because of the way Israel has handled the issue, I'm afraid they have sent people to join their ranks in droves MUCH better and faster than any propaganda Hamas might have used. I meant the use of Nuke in their backyard, they'd surely be hurting their own as well.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I meant the use of Nuke in their backyard, they'd surely be hurting their own as well.
I wasn't talking about nukes, either. If Israel wanted to, they could turn Gaza city into a mini-Dresden using conventional weapons.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
But Mike, from the way you told it, its OK for the Israelis to live in peace and prosperity and security but its not a thing for the Palestinians.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion but I'm all for everyone living in peace, but and it is a big but, if a people are being attacked they have every right to do whatever it takes to stop it. Again, how long should Israel have just sit there watching rockets being lobbed into their country? If we're being honest, we both know that if Israel continued to take it, the rockets would have continues to increase in effectiveness and in strength. Hamas is obviously an Iranian proxy and Hamas' charter call for the death of Jews and Iran calls for their destruction. Pretend you're an Israeli, what would you want done?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
The exact same thing, peace and prosperity for all, but I'd approach it with a completely different paradigm, one that has yielded excellent fruit in Jordan. I'd get the change from the inside. I'd show the advantage of prosperity and peace. Radicalism disappears double quick when that happens. And before you misunderstand me or for someone else to twist my words, I'm for the war against terror but completely against the way it was conducted.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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You twat: the Israelis use US weaponry! Besides the whole 'lets not hurt the civilians' mantra is fine when the civilians are not living on and around the site of the launchers but complete bollocks in real life. I, for one, fully back what Israel is doing and hope they finish what they started and I don't give a toss if anyone downvotes me: it won't chnage what I think.
digital man wrote:
I, for one, fully back what Israel is doing and hope they finish what they started
See, that's the pivotal point of argument between you and me. I'm not against what they're doing to Hamas, its the civilians I'm arguing for.
digital man wrote:
I don't give a toss if anyone downvotes me: it won't chnage what I think.
And neither should you, stick to your guns unless you are convinced otherwise. I don't vote.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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No where near to the amount of Jews? Unless you're like Mel Gibson and just forgot to count the numbers of WW2.
EliottA wrote:
No where near to the amount of Jews? Unless you're like Mel Gibson and just forgot to count the numbers of WW2.
And that is related to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict how?
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Asshat, better to not attack Gaza and keep having 20+ rockets a day land in Israel? Because Hamas is just "defending" itself then, right? This is a sound message from Israel to the Palestinian people, "You own Gaza. it is yours. You choose your own government and which political parties you support. if you support Hamas while they launch rockets, then it is the same as if you launched them yourselves. If they hit us, we will now hit you" Why is it you people forget that the Palestinian people are a self-governing society? Let them get out of their houses and kick Hamas out, or this is the alternative.
EliottA wrote:
This is a sound message from Israel to the Palestinian people, "You own Gaza. it is yours. You choose your own government and which political parties you support. if you support Hamas while they launch rockets, then it is the same as if you launched them yourselves. If they hit us, we will now hit you"
And the UN. Israel knows the GPS coordinate of all UN buildings for months. UN buildings are clearly indicated as such. How targeting them can help in defending Israel from Hamas attacks?
Society is composed of two great classes, those that have more dinners than appetite, and those who have more appetite than dinners Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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And I'm still being told that this is defense. Defense my ass. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm[^] and http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5053R720090115[^]
- A boat carrying medical supplies to Gaza is surrounded by Israeli warships in international waters off Lebanon's southern coast and forced to return to Cyprus, according to charity Free Gaza
- Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip reach 1,028 according to Gaza medical sources. Nearly a third of the dead are said to be children
- The UN's relief agency, Unrwa, says part of its HQ in the city is on fire after being shelled by the Israelis.
- Speaking to reporters on the Israel-Gaza border, Unrwa spokesman Christopher Gunness said three of the agency's employees were hurt in the attack. He said the compound was hit by what Unrwa believed to be three white phosphorus shells, which are incendiary weapons used as a smoke screen.About 700 people were still sheltering in the compound, he said, and he was particularly concerned about the proximity of the fire to five full fuel tanks. Asked whether he was sure the attack had been carried out by Israel, he said he was not aware of Hamas having access to white phosphorus. Mr Gunness added that Unrwa would not be able to distribute food or medical supplies on Thursday as its trucks were unable to leave the compound.
- More than 1,000 Gazans and 13 Israelis have reportedly died so far in the conflict.
- Dozens of terrified residents were seen fleeing on foot. Thousands more huddled in homes that provided precarious shelter while explosions tore through rubble-strewn streets clouded by smoke. "It is a catastrophe," one woman said, walking quickly away from the area and carrying a child in her arms as two other children ran behind her to keep up. "We took our money and passports. We have to carry some identification with us in case we get killed," she said. "Hamas can claim victory if it wants but we just need this bloodshed to end."
- A senior Western diplomat said Israel appeared to be trying to make last-minute gains on the groun
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Again, I ask, what is Hamas Israel targetting? Schools, which after 3 days they admitted was a mistake. Humanitarian agencies, civilian homes, hospitals, food stores, fuel stores. If we want to go historical, you just count how many sources of livelihoods, how many pregnant Palestinian women were stopped from reaching the hospital or were killed outright and their bellies ripped open to see what the gender of the fetus was.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer