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  3. An ethical question...

An ethical question...

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  • R RichardM1

    It is the government freedom machine. It brought freedom to a large part of Europe, as well as Iraq. This is not a political statement, it's just a fact. Do you think I'm being political with that statement? There was no inconsistency in his post: He said that he had sold out, he showed how he had. :( Than he said that the only thing he would not do for a living was any line of work that killed people. Do you think that means even if it would keep himself (or others) free, or save lives? Edit - Sorry. I stand behind what I said, but I took a bad approach to saying it. /Edit

    Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.

    Richard Andrew x64R Offline
    Richard Andrew x64R Offline
    Richard Andrew x64
    wrote on last edited by
    #35

    Hey, I like you, man. Finally a voice of reason and reality. People's words say that America is evil, but their feet say that there's no place on Earth they would rather be.

    K 1 Reply Last reply
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    • L Lost User

      Tobacco kills tens of thousands a year in the UK. More than any arms manufacturer. 'nuff said.

      Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

      Richard Andrew x64R Offline
      Richard Andrew x64R Offline
      Richard Andrew x64
      wrote on last edited by
      #36

      So you're not real big on personal freedom, then, huh? You favor a nanny state?

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      • D Douglas Troy

        martin_hughes wrote:

        Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in?

        Yes. I think most people have some kind of scruples where they would turn down a job no matter the monies.

        martin_hughes wrote:

        To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit?

        Anything that would require me to lie, cheat or steal; and killing is completely out of the question, unless it's a bug. I kill bugs everyday.

        Richard Andrew x64R Offline
        Richard Andrew x64R Offline
        Richard Andrew x64
        wrote on last edited by
        #37

        Douglas Troy wrote:

        Anything that would require me to lie, cheat or steal;

        So that pretty much rules out being a used car salesman, or a politician. :-D

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        • Richard Andrew x64R Richard Andrew x64

          So you're not real big on personal freedom, then, huh? You favor a nanny state?

          L Offline
          L Offline
          Lost User
          wrote on last edited by
          #38

          If I'm not for one extreme then I must be for the opposite extreme? Tsk tsk.

          Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

          Richard Andrew x64R M 2 Replies Last reply
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          • B bulg

            Europe-countries have militaries? I thought it was just USA

            Richard Andrew x64R Offline
            Richard Andrew x64R Offline
            Richard Andrew x64
            wrote on last edited by
            #39

            bulg wrote:

            Europe-countries have militaries?

            Sure, they have militaries, but they are purely ceremonial.

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            • L Lost User

              If I'm not for one extreme then I must be for the opposite extreme? Tsk tsk.

              Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

              Richard Andrew x64R Offline
              Richard Andrew x64R Offline
              Richard Andrew x64
              wrote on last edited by
              #40

              Yeah, sorry. Never mind.

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              • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

                then you pretty much shouldn't work because your tax dollars go to support the gov't killing machine.

                T Offline
                T Offline
                ToddHileHoffer
                wrote on last edited by
                #41

                I just want to clarify. I don't have a problem with our military. I gladly pay my taxes even though the money is used to buy weapons. I love America and I am damn proud of our military. I just don't want to work for a company that profits by making arms that kill people. I would just rather someone else do that. Also, even though corporations are mostly evil. I'd rather be in a country run by corporations than live in some Fascist state. Business is business but corporations could make decisions with a conscience and sometimes do what is right even if it is not always the most profitable. Honestly, I would much prefer a completely free market to what we have now. It is just sickening to see my government giving away out tax dollars to big banks because they screwed up.

                I didn't get any requirements for the signature

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                • T ToddHileHoffer

                  I just want to clarify. I don't have a problem with our military. I gladly pay my taxes even though the money is used to buy weapons. I love America and I am damn proud of our military. I just don't want to work for a company that profits by making arms that kill people. I would just rather someone else do that. Also, even though corporations are mostly evil. I'd rather be in a country run by corporations than live in some Fascist state. Business is business but corporations could make decisions with a conscience and sometimes do what is right even if it is not always the most profitable. Honestly, I would much prefer a completely free market to what we have now. It is just sickening to see my government giving away out tax dollars to big banks because they screwed up.

                  I didn't get any requirements for the signature

                  C Offline
                  C Offline
                  charlieg
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #42

                  "Also, even though corporations are mostly evil" bigot. ;) Do you even know what you just said?

                  Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Hurtling toward a government of the stupid, by the stupid, for the stupid we go. —Michelle Malkin This crap sandwich is all yours.... 2009 "Stimulus Bill"

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                  • Richard Andrew x64R Richard Andrew x64

                    Douglas Troy wrote:

                    Anything that would require me to lie, cheat or steal;

                    So that pretty much rules out being a used car salesman, or a politician. :-D

                    C Offline
                    C Offline
                    charlieg
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #43

                    lawyer

                    Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Hurtling toward a government of the stupid, by the stupid, for the stupid we go. —Michelle Malkin This crap sandwich is all yours.... 2009 "Stimulus Bill"

                    Richard Andrew x64R 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • L Lost User

                      If its within the law - its within my "ethics". :-O

                      H Offline
                      H Offline
                      Henry Minute
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #44

                      Yes, OK. But what happens when they pass a law that you don't agree with, or that breaks your moral code?

                      Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”

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                      • L Lost User

                        If I'm not for one extreme then I must be for the opposite extreme? Tsk tsk.

                        Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

                        M Offline
                        M Offline
                        Mycroft Holmes
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #45

                        leave im be he's used to arguing with his wife - Wife - do you like this new dress RA distractedly - hhmmm yeah I gues so wife shrilly - so you think I'm fat... Could not resist it's such a cliche and I hear it all the time.

                        Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH

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                        • M martin_hughes

                          Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?

                          print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?

                          M Offline
                          M Offline
                          Marc Clifton
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #46

                          martin_hughes wrote:

                          I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit.

                          Been there, done that. When my ex-wife found out that I was helping to design communication satellites, she got on my case that satellites interfere with the spiritual forces streaming toward the earth. Ex. So, the first question is, do you make your choices based on someone else's sense of morals/ethics or your own? If by someone else's, well, that seems just plain wrong. If your own, you're obviously going to offend someone elses. The decision (which someone will of course disagree with) that I made is that if I don't do the work, someone else will, and I know that I can do a good job at it, so I'd rather be the one. And then I take the money and launder it, if you will, in ways that express my morality/ethics. For example, the adult entertainment industry has helped pay my son's tuition at a Waldorf school for many years. And the thing that surprises me the most is that, no matter what industry I've worked in, there are intelligent and caring people that are grappling with that issue as well. That surprises me all the time. I guess I haven't learned not to pre-judge the people just because of what they do. I've met "entertainers" that are putting themselves through college. I've met club owners that are deeply affected by how a girl can make $2000 a night at one of these clubs (mind you, we're talking legal activities) and the next morning she needs to borrow some money because she's blown it all on drugs that night. Similarly, when I did some military work, I was surprised that a lot of the smart people were there because, while they may have disagreed with the work, they felt they could be an influence in their position to make the world better. I for one was delighted when Congress cancelled the MX Missile Train program! The point I guess I'm trying to make is that it's one thing to look at morality/ethics abstractly from 30,000 feet, and it's another thing when you really get to know the people. Marc

                          Will work for food. Interacx

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                          • C charlieg

                            lawyer

                            Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Hurtling toward a government of the stupid, by the stupid, for the stupid we go. —Michelle Malkin This crap sandwich is all yours.... 2009 "Stimulus Bill"

                            Richard Andrew x64R Offline
                            Richard Andrew x64R Offline
                            Richard Andrew x64
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #47

                            Well that's a good one. There's a guy on the radio who says that a lawyer is a "liar for hire."

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                            • Richard Andrew x64R Richard Andrew x64

                              Douglas Troy wrote:

                              Anything that would require me to lie, cheat or steal;

                              So that pretty much rules out being a used car salesman, or a politician. :-D

                              D Offline
                              D Offline
                              Douglas Troy
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #48

                              hahaha. Yea, I guess it does. :)

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                              • L Lost User

                                Tobacco kills tens of thousands a year in the UK. More than any arms manufacturer. 'nuff said.

                                Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

                                H Offline
                                H Offline
                                Henry Minute
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #49

                                When I read the OP, and before following the rest of this thread, I googled 'more people die from' and there are some amazingly captioned hits. One of them, about third in my list says that more people died from work-related cancer than on the roads in the UK. Following on from my reading of your statement, this means that you would be in favour of banning work, on the grounds that it causes more deaths than something else? Surely it is more complicated than that. BTW my name is not Joan, and I have recently returned from my local 'The Throat and Funnel', after celebrating my birthday. Be gentle with me. :)

                                Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”

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                                • M martin_hughes

                                  Douglas Troy wrote:

                                  Anything that would require me to lie, cheat or steal; and killing is completely out of the question, unless it's a bug. I kill bugs everyday.

                                  Bugs are fair game :) Who loves ya, baby?

                                  print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?

                                  D Offline
                                  D Offline
                                  Douglas Troy
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #50

                                  martin_hughes wrote:

                                  Who loves ya, baby?

                                  Don't think I didn't catch the Kojak reference ... might be the only quote I know from him ... ;p

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                                  • M martin_hughes

                                    Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?

                                    print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?

                                    E Offline
                                    E Offline
                                    Ennis Ray Lynch Jr
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #51

                                    The way in which the company approached the task at hand would determine my willingness to work on a subject. Would I work for a pron company? Well I am sure a lot of their software runs on the MS stack so technically and ethically every employee at MS is supporting those companies. Draw your own line and don't compromise and be happy with your decision and you can always sleep at night no matter where some one else's line is.

                                    Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane

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                                    • A Anthony Mushrow

                                      Todd Smith wrote:

                                      However, your privacy should be limited while at work. You're there to work, not chat on CP all day. Crap gotta go!

                                      He said users, not employees. Spyware on employees isn't so bad, the company is paying them to work after all (rather than watch movies). Whereas a user has actually paid the company to use the software.

                                      My current favourite word is: Delicious!

                                      -SK Genius

                                      Game Programming articles start -here[^]-

                                      T Offline
                                      T Offline
                                      Todd Smith
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #52

                                      Practically every web page you visit tracks your activity. Lots of software has built in usage statistics but it's usually usually on an opt-in basis (I forget are Steam's statistics on user's hardware opt-in?). It really comes down to what kind of data are they asking you to capture.

                                      Todd Smith

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                                      • M martin_hughes

                                        Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?

                                        print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?

                                        B Offline
                                        B Offline
                                        baldric man
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #53

                                        Interesting question :) My feelings might seem strange to most, but here they are anyway I wouldn't have a problem working for an arms company, if I felt comfortable its product was always distributed correctly (i.e. not into an African country in tribal conflict, for example.... but I know I probably wouldn't know anyway) I would be very unlikely to feel comfortable working for a political party (been there done that was crap), but government itself is ok. I would prefer not to work in tobacco, but certain alcohol companies are fine. I'd be hesitant to work for a major pharmaceutical corp. I wouldn't touch anything in gambling, and finally, definitely nothing in the euphemistically named "Adult Entertainment" industries either - I nearly had to write software for a certain organisation a few years back, but told my boss he needed to find someone else for that project. In the end, the project was dropped anyway. Wow, that was a long post.... :(

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                                        • M martin_hughes

                                          Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?

                                          print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?

                                          G Offline
                                          G Offline
                                          Gennady Oster
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #54

                                          Actually your question may be shorten to: "Do you agree with the well known (at least in Russian) colloquialism: 'Money doesn't smell'?". My answer is - no. Regards, Gennady

                                          My English is permanently under construction. Be patient !!

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