An ethical question...
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Yes, OK. But what happens when they pass a law that you don't agree with, or that breaks your moral code?
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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If I'm not for one extreme then I must be for the opposite extreme? Tsk tsk.
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leave im be he's used to arguing with his wife - Wife - do you like this new dress RA distractedly - hhmmm yeah I gues so wife shrilly - so you think I'm fat... Could not resist it's such a cliche and I hear it all the time.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
martin_hughes wrote:
I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit.
Been there, done that. When my ex-wife found out that I was helping to design communication satellites, she got on my case that satellites interfere with the spiritual forces streaming toward the earth. Ex. So, the first question is, do you make your choices based on someone else's sense of morals/ethics or your own? If by someone else's, well, that seems just plain wrong. If your own, you're obviously going to offend someone elses. The decision (which someone will of course disagree with) that I made is that if I don't do the work, someone else will, and I know that I can do a good job at it, so I'd rather be the one. And then I take the money and launder it, if you will, in ways that express my morality/ethics. For example, the adult entertainment industry has helped pay my son's tuition at a Waldorf school for many years. And the thing that surprises me the most is that, no matter what industry I've worked in, there are intelligent and caring people that are grappling with that issue as well. That surprises me all the time. I guess I haven't learned not to pre-judge the people just because of what they do. I've met "entertainers" that are putting themselves through college. I've met club owners that are deeply affected by how a girl can make $2000 a night at one of these clubs (mind you, we're talking legal activities) and the next morning she needs to borrow some money because she's blown it all on drugs that night. Similarly, when I did some military work, I was surprised that a lot of the smart people were there because, while they may have disagreed with the work, they felt they could be an influence in their position to make the world better. I for one was delighted when Congress cancelled the MX Missile Train program! The point I guess I'm trying to make is that it's one thing to look at morality/ethics abstractly from 30,000 feet, and it's another thing when you really get to know the people. Marc
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lawyer
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Hurtling toward a government of the stupid, by the stupid, for the stupid we go. —Michelle Malkin This crap sandwich is all yours.... 2009 "Stimulus Bill"
Well that's a good one. There's a guy on the radio who says that a lawyer is a "liar for hire."
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Douglas Troy wrote:
Anything that would require me to lie, cheat or steal;
So that pretty much rules out being a used car salesman, or a politician. :-D
hahaha. Yea, I guess it does. :)
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Tobacco kills tens of thousands a year in the UK. More than any arms manufacturer. 'nuff said.
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When I read the OP, and before following the rest of this thread, I googled 'more people die from' and there are some amazingly captioned hits. One of them, about third in my list says that more people died from work-related cancer than on the roads in the UK. Following on from my reading of your statement, this means that you would be in favour of banning work, on the grounds that it causes more deaths than something else? Surely it is more complicated than that. BTW my name is not Joan, and I have recently returned from my local 'The Throat and Funnel', after celebrating my birthday. Be gentle with me. :)
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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Douglas Troy wrote:
Anything that would require me to lie, cheat or steal; and killing is completely out of the question, unless it's a bug. I kill bugs everyday.
Bugs are fair game :) Who loves ya, baby?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
martin_hughes wrote:
Who loves ya, baby?
Don't think I didn't catch the Kojak reference ... might be the only quote I know from him ... ;p
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Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
The way in which the company approached the task at hand would determine my willingness to work on a subject. Would I work for a pron company? Well I am sure a lot of their software runs on the MS stack so technically and ethically every employee at MS is supporting those companies. Draw your own line and don't compromise and be happy with your decision and you can always sleep at night no matter where some one else's line is.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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Todd Smith wrote:
However, your privacy should be limited while at work. You're there to work, not chat on CP all day. Crap gotta go!
He said users, not employees. Spyware on employees isn't so bad, the company is paying them to work after all (rather than watch movies). Whereas a user has actually paid the company to use the software.
My current favourite word is: Delicious!
-SK Genius
Practically every web page you visit tracks your activity. Lots of software has built in usage statistics but it's usually usually on an opt-in basis (I forget are Steam's statistics on user's hardware opt-in?). It really comes down to what kind of data are they asking you to capture.
Todd Smith
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Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
Interesting question :) My feelings might seem strange to most, but here they are anyway I wouldn't have a problem working for an arms company, if I felt comfortable its product was always distributed correctly (i.e. not into an African country in tribal conflict, for example.... but I know I probably wouldn't know anyway) I would be very unlikely to feel comfortable working for a political party (been there done that was crap), but government itself is ok. I would prefer not to work in tobacco, but certain alcohol companies are fine. I'd be hesitant to work for a major pharmaceutical corp. I wouldn't touch anything in gambling, and finally, definitely nothing in the euphemistically named "Adult Entertainment" industries either - I nearly had to write software for a certain organisation a few years back, but told my boss he needed to find someone else for that project. In the end, the project was dropped anyway. Wow, that was a long post.... :(
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Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
Actually your question may be shorten to: "Do you agree with the well known (at least in Russian) colloquialism: 'Money doesn't smell'?". My answer is - no. Regards, Gennady
My English is permanently under construction. Be patient !!
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Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
would be interesting to know if any members are/were involved with the spyware the us government is implementing after the whole 9/11 debacle pushed legislation through congress that allows the government to 'watch' the populace. i bet some of you guys are actually writing code for the government...come on admit it! that's ethically reprehensible but more so because of who is doing it...supposedly the greatest democracy on earth! surely that is a violation of the constitution! The code you write is owned by you long after you leave the employers building because the corporate morality consists of individuals. YOU are responsible! It would be great if you could still keep getting paid after having left the building though.:suss:
No one knows the things of a man except the spirit of that man; likewise no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God whom we have received. He who is joined to the Lord, is ONE Spirit with him(Jesus) - 1Cor 2:10-16 & 6:17
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I'm an egocentric nationalistic mercenary. I won't work against what I view to be my personal or national interests; otherwise: SHOW ME THE MONEY!
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
My version: I may be a whore, but at least I'm an honest one and try to give good value for the price paid.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
Without wanting to sound morally righteous, the answers demonstrate the practical position of much of this community -- and the world. Failure to have and live up to a true moral code is why people go to jail and send companies into bankruptcy and ruin lives. We may not agree as to all of the details, but there should be limits on what we are willing to handle. Whether this is by industry, or by project, by type of project, there should be limits. For example, no spying, no tobacco, no porn, nothing illegal. As I said, we will not agree on this list, and the answers to your question demonstrate that we have no morals, at least within the field of work. Or else they demonstrate a lack of concern for you and your question, a moral position in and of itself. This is one of the reasons the country is in such bad shape economically. If people had morals and abided by them, maybe things would be better.
jimatjude
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Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
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Yes, OK. But what happens when they pass a law that you don't agree with, or that breaks your moral code?
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
I'm sure there are many laws that I do not agree with. If I feel strongly enough about these laws I'll work within our democratic system to change said laws. However, as a developer (for a corporation) I take my projects as they come and as long as they are legal... I do them. As for my moral code... well let's just say I'm not naive. Weapons are a part of all human societies and always have been. Sometimes having the better weapon makes the difference between a society's survival and extinction. It's foolish to think "the other guy" has the same moral code as you.
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Or rather a question about your ethics. Do you have a particularly strong moral stance which dictates which industries, no matter what the reward, you will and won't work in? For example, in my time I've worked in (amongst other things) tobacco and gaming - two industries which a lot of people find highly objectional - which I had no problem with morally and was ultimately very comfortable with. However, I would not want to be involved with a company that manufactures or supplies arms and armaments or a company that specialises in the production of films of dubious artistic merit. There's my, slightly morally ambiguous, line. To broaden the scope a little, are there any tasks that your current employer could set that would see you quit? Example: if you were asked to develop a secret program to spy on your user's activities (effectively spy-ware whose results would be for the sole consumption of your employer) would you be happy to do it, or would you feel compelled to find employment elsewhere?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
I do not want to work for the insurance industry. If my company asked me to I would try to get out of it but, I would not leave my job over it. There are plenty of other areas that I would not get involved in as well. The question is hard to answer, it's not simple black and white. A blanket yes or no type answer does not really cut it. I would not write the spy program. I would work for the industries that you listed if the employor where legtimate.
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Definitely, but speaking for yourself what's your stance?
print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?
I treat ethics serously. However, I do analyze a particular task first and then make a judgment. Taking "spy on user" as an example, if the software tries to steal user's information, I would not do it. If it prevents a user from doing something that he should not do, I'll do it. Even in this case, I would give adequate warnings to the user before recording his activities. :)
TOMZ_KV
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I work for the military, and I have no issues with it. The gambling industry would disturb me more as they take advantage of people that are bad at math
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I prefer taxing stupid people to taxing myself. Go lottery!
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
