Opinion: Rise of PHP shows how msft dev tools have lost their way
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Jeff Hadfield wrote:
PHP and MySQL have beaten Microsoft
What MySQL? The one soon to be TheirSQL?
Mladen Jankovic wrote:
The one soon to be TheirSQL?
MySQL is GPL'd, it's not going anywhere.
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Shog9 wrote:
Don't forget loose typing
you'd better not look at what's coming up for C# 4.0
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Shog9 wrote:
Don't forget loose typing
you'd better not look at what's coming up for C# 4.0
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I suppose Visual Web Developer Express (or whatever it's called) is Microsoft's response. Trouble is, while the price is right for the hobbyist developer, the learning curve is just the same as Visual Studio Standard, so it takes a significant time investment to learn how to use it. And I would have to say that even as a professional developer (I do get paid for my development skills :-)) I'd be as happy or happier using Apache+Python+SQLite for a little (or not so little) web-site - there's less getting in the way than with ASP.NET - although that's just an uninformed opinion, as I've never used ASP.NET. I have used Python and stuff for web development though :)
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
Stuart Dootson wrote:
I'd be as happy or happier using Apache+Python
Like these guys?[^] They actually began their site using lisp...eww.
Stuart Dootson wrote:
there's less getting in the way than with ASP.NET
Even with django and turbogears which are "heavy" frameworks it is still much simpler imo than the asp.net page model and debugging is soooooooooo much easier.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Stuart Dootson wrote:
I'd be as happy or happier using Apache+Python
Like these guys?[^] They actually began their site using lisp...eww.
Stuart Dootson wrote:
there's less getting in the way than with ASP.NET
Even with django and turbogears which are "heavy" frameworks it is still much simpler imo than the asp.net page model and debugging is soooooooooo much easier.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
They actually began their site using lisp...eww
That's always been my reaction to Lisp - the brackets, the brackets!!!
Chris Austin wrote:
django and turbogears which are "heavy" frameworks
I've never used any more than CherryPy + Genshi...but as they make up roughly 50% of Turbogears, maybe that's where I should be looking :-)
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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Stuart Dootson wrote:
I'd be as happy or happier using Apache+Python
Like these guys?[^] They actually began their site using lisp...eww.
Stuart Dootson wrote:
there's less getting in the way than with ASP.NET
Even with django and turbogears which are "heavy" frameworks it is still much simpler imo than the asp.net page model and debugging is soooooooooo much easier.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote: Even with django and turbogears which are "heavy" frameworks it is still much simpler imo than the asp.net page model and debugging is soooooooooo much easier. Really...? There is a programming language / tool that is easier than C# / ASP.Net / SQL Server. I haven't really played with any non MS tools because I found .net to be very easy. (Especially debugging). Perhaps I need to open my eyes to what else is available.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Maybe they set it all up while he was away on one of his biking trips Big Grin
At first glance I read that as '...one of his bikini trips' :suss:
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
I saw "binging trips".
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Chris Austin wrote: Even with django and turbogears which are "heavy" frameworks it is still much simpler imo than the asp.net page model and debugging is soooooooooo much easier. Really...? There is a programming language / tool that is easier than C# / ASP.Net / SQL Server. I haven't really played with any non MS tools because I found .net to be very easy. (Especially debugging). Perhaps I need to open my eyes to what else is available.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
There is a programming language / tool that is easier than C# / ASP.Net / SQL Server.
It's really my opinion rather than fact :) But, I just enjoy coding and playing with technology in general and given a choice I try to go with a simple solution. The two frameworks that I mentioned both have some learning curve associated with them and coming from an asp.net point of view it may well seem obtuse when you begin playing around. The strict mvc approach seems to be a sticking point for people new to them as well. Not to mention, you would have to pick up the language as you go.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Perhaps I need to open my eyes to what else is available.
Why not? The worst thing that could happen is that you reaffirm the things you love about your current tools.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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That's what I thought as well. However I will admit that we use PHP at work because it's less hassle to setup and program in. However it should be noted that most of our solutions are internal, and tend to be pretty basic.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
because it's less hassle to setup and program in
ASP.NET and VS Studio makes it a no brainer to build ASP.NET sites with the click of a button, but to each there own I guess. The way I see it, if ASP.NET would have been put out by anyone other than Microosft, PHP would not exist any longer.
Rocky <>< Recent Blog Post: Playing with Kubuntu Linux.. Thinking about Silverlight? www.SilverlightCity.com
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Jeff Hadfield wrote:
PHP and MySQL have beaten Microsoft
What MySQL? The one soon to be TheirSQL?
High five! :laugh:
Rocky <>< Recent Blog Post: Playing with Kubuntu Linux.. Thinking about Silverlight? www.SilverlightCity.com
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Mladen Jankovic wrote:
The one soon to be TheirSQL?
MySQL is GPL'd, it's not going anywhere.
Yeah, it probably isn't going to go anywhere.. And probably have little work done to it for the next ten years. I cannot see them throwing in resources to maintain and enhance a tool to compete with their own business. It is just getting stuck into a virtual vault forever.
Rocky <>< Recent Blog Post: Playing with Kubuntu Linux.. Thinking about Silverlight? www.SilverlightCity.com
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Yeah, it probably isn't going to go anywhere.. And probably have little work done to it for the next ten years. I cannot see them throwing in resources to maintain and enhance a tool to compete with their own business. It is just getting stuck into a virtual vault forever.
Rocky <>< Recent Blog Post: Playing with Kubuntu Linux.. Thinking about Silverlight? www.SilverlightCity.com
Rocky Moore wrote:
It is just getting stuck into a virtual vault forever.
it can't be stuck in a vault, the GPL doesn't allow it. the source is available for anybody to download and modify.
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IIS on XP is somewhat gimp. XP server might work though.
Todd Smith
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Just put this on the CP Twitter feed (@thecodeproject). RT @jeffreymcmanus: our pal @andrewbrust: rise of PHP reveals MSFT how dev tools have lost their way "Remembrance of Code Past"[^] My favorite paragraph: "PHP and MySQL have beaten Microsoft at the game it practically invented. Together, they offer a programming environment with a low barrier to entry, high productivity, more-than-sufficient functionality, low cost and a wildly enthusiastic ecosystem of developers. Dial back to the early 1990s, and that was Microsoft. In the latter part of this decade, it most certainly is not."
And back in the real world, a manager at my company insisted on using PHP to build a server service. Never did get it to fully work and now that he's gone, we have nobody who knows PHP and no money or desire to hire someone just for that. The real irony; we could have done the whole thing in .NET in a fraction of the time and a fraction of the cost. A few weeks ago, our IT department added a Sharepoint server and almost instantly eliminated a chunk of the functionality of that server.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Rocky Moore wrote:
It is just getting stuck into a virtual vault forever.
it can't be stuck in a vault, the GPL doesn't allow it. the source is available for anybody to download and modify.
The vault I was mentioning is that there will be little or no improvement. The code is there, but it takes developers to build it and I do not see Oracle spending resources on development to compete against themselves.
Rocky <>< Recent Blog Post: Playing with Kubuntu Linux.. Thinking about Silverlight? www.SilverlightCity.com
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I saw "binging trips".
That sure would have made it easier to get him to say it was ok. Add a tape (or digital) recorder for proof and he wouldn't have any way to back out. :-)
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Rocky Moore wrote:
It is just getting stuck into a virtual vault forever.
it can't be stuck in a vault, the GPL doesn't allow it. the source is available for anybody to download and modify.
True, but most of the dev work was funded by selling commercial licenses/support contracts; not by garage coders. If Oracle continues to sell these while pocketing the money it's going to be hard for a new group to get going...
It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains. -- Pride and Prejudice and Zombies
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Just put this on the CP Twitter feed (@thecodeproject). RT @jeffreymcmanus: our pal @andrewbrust: rise of PHP reveals MSFT how dev tools have lost their way "Remembrance of Code Past"[^] My favorite paragraph: "PHP and MySQL have beaten Microsoft at the game it practically invented. Together, they offer a programming environment with a low barrier to entry, high productivity, more-than-sufficient functionality, low cost and a wildly enthusiastic ecosystem of developers. Dial back to the early 1990s, and that was Microsoft. In the latter part of this decade, it most certainly is not."
Learning curve...less getting in the way than in VS..??? Sorry, I don't get it. I use VS, MSSQL and IIS with no worries no problems. I am looking forward to VS2010. Every other product I have used seems second rate. In any enterprise situation I can't see where PHP would be a viable option over the Microsoft solution. I am not saying VS is the perfect tool or that PHP is useless, I just dont see where there is a huge learning curve or that VS has anything that gets in the way of learning or developing. Perhaps for the hobbyist or the part time code monkey PHP would be useful. And I really hate how elitist this sounds but....enterprise level applications developed by experienced programmers are going to be done with VS. I am not sure what Rise of PHP you are referring to. The article is obviously an opinion based piece but look at the HUGE assumptions without any factual backing: "More significantly, Microsoft is struggling to understand how MySQL, the relational database that's "good enough," is stealing an increasing amount of momentum from SQL Server." "PHP and MySQL have beaten Microsoft at the game it practically invented. Together, they offer a programming environment with a low barrier to entry, high productivity, more-than-sufficient functionality, low cost and a wildly enthusiastic ecosystem of developers. Dial back to the early 1990s, and that was Microsoft. In the latter part of this decade, it most certainly is not." My particular problem with this statement is that it assumes that everyone WANTS to go back to the old way of doing things. Personally I HATE classic ASP. Why would I want to go back to that style of programming when it has evolved into something more? "But Microsoft can, and must, serve the productivity programmer as well. Because if it doesn't, others clearly will." By productivity programmer do you mean novice independent coder? I am not trying to put down PHP, it is what it is. What it isn't is a replacement for VS. It would seem that Microsoft understands that, but this author did not.
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Just put this on the CP Twitter feed (@thecodeproject). RT @jeffreymcmanus: our pal @andrewbrust: rise of PHP reveals MSFT how dev tools have lost their way "Remembrance of Code Past"[^] My favorite paragraph: "PHP and MySQL have beaten Microsoft at the game it practically invented. Together, they offer a programming environment with a low barrier to entry, high productivity, more-than-sufficient functionality, low cost and a wildly enthusiastic ecosystem of developers. Dial back to the early 1990s, and that was Microsoft. In the latter part of this decade, it most certainly is not."
I started using PHP w/ PDT and I feel like, to some degree, that Microsoft's tools are bloated, but I have become attached to C#/VB.net/T-SQL and the ease at which (after you learn how to use it of coarse) it inter-communicates. I think Microsoft did something right with the CLR of .net and will always be there for business professionals who want a supplied product. There are pros and cons both ways, in reality it comes down to the skills that have been obtained through experience and the ability to adapt to new projects. But if you are trying to learn .net after already knowing PHP or classic asp, get ready to pull your hair out, it's a brain duster! K-BL
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