Absolutely disgusting
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Because you've now reached a point where everything is in the crapper, and you have no wiggle room. Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Rob Graham wrote:
You can't provide a single example where either I or Jon have said any such thing. Your tin foil hat has slipped over both your eyes and ears.
You were doing it just yesterday(?) arguing that universal health care isn't inherently unconstitutional. Eventhough there is absolutely nothing in the constituion giving the federal state the power to do any such thing.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
I pointed out that the argument could be made, based on the 14th amendment's equal protection clause, as well as under the regulation of interstate commerce clauses (Medical insurance is an interstate business after all). I did not defend that positon, nor do I now, but it is an argument that you cannot dismiss. And what does that have to do with "rejecting the historic role of the courts" . Meh. I don't know why I bother to respond to you. You become more like Ilion and CSS every day. Enjoy your delusions. Enjoy your dwindling and defunct political party. your dreams of 2012 are empty, you drive off all potential allies with your paleo-republican fervor.
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Christian Graus wrote:
But, Stan's idea that capitalism with no control will always be to the benefit of the workers, is just insane.
When did I ever say that? Capitalims does not even exist to benefit workers. It simply provides the conditions essential to maximize the opportunities people have to benefit themselves. It isn't perfect, it tends to have downturns, and is predictably unpredictable. But it is the only system which can provide the long term economic growth that allows for a stable middle class. It does require strongly held social institutions to avoid becoming destructive to essential human liberties, but in that it is not distinquishable from any other means of maintaining human society.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
It simply provides the conditions essential to maximize the opportunities people have to benefit themselves.
No, it doesn't. It maximises opportunity for those at the top of the tree. That's all. So long as the benefit of those at the top, is the same as benefit to those below, that's fine. When it's not, only those below, will suffer. I have a friend who lives in Dayton. NCR, where she works, is moving to Georgia, as a means to make some money ( Georgia is paying them to come ) and to shed workers. Who wins in that situaton ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
It does require strongly held social institutions to avoid becoming destructive to essential human liberties, but in that it is not distinquishable from any other means of maintaining human society.
Do you mean a society that is tight knit to provide assistance to those who suffer under it ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Christian Graus wrote:
and you have no wiggle room. Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Thanks for the laugh.
I'm always there for those less fortunate than myself.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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I pointed out that the argument could be made, based on the 14th amendment's equal protection clause, as well as under the regulation of interstate commerce clauses (Medical insurance is an interstate business after all). I did not defend that positon, nor do I now, but it is an argument that you cannot dismiss. And what does that have to do with "rejecting the historic role of the courts" . Meh. I don't know why I bother to respond to you. You become more like Ilion and CSS every day. Enjoy your delusions. Enjoy your dwindling and defunct political party. your dreams of 2012 are empty, you drive off all potential allies with your paleo-republican fervor.
Rob Graham wrote:
I pointed out that the argument could be made, based on the 14th amendment's equal protection clause, as well as under the regulation of interstate commerce clauses (Medical insurance is an interstate business after all). I did not defend that positon, nor do I now, but it is an argument that you cannot dismiss.
Fine, how about sodomy laws? The 14th amendment has become the constitution. It is now a legal device that essentially gives the courts the carte blanch authority to turn American society into what ever they want it to be. When I hear libertarians protesting that, I might revise my opinions of them. Opps, there I go back into the sharia box again...
Rob Graham wrote:
Meh. I don't know why I bother to respond to you. You become more like Ilion and CSS every day.
Yeah, how dare we disagree with the authority of the libertarian brotherhood? If you were really paying attention you would observe that Illion, CSS and I disagree with one another as much as we do the rest of you. It is only your crowd that moves together in intellectual lock step, deciding who is and who is not worthy of your approval. Libertarianism at its most hypocritical. But then I repeat myself...
Rob Graham wrote:
you drive off all potential allies with your paleo-republican fervor.
Thats 'paleo-conservative' thank you very much...
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
It simply provides the conditions essential to maximize the opportunities people have to benefit themselves.
No, it doesn't. It maximises opportunity for those at the top of the tree. That's all. So long as the benefit of those at the top, is the same as benefit to those below, that's fine. When it's not, only those below, will suffer. I have a friend who lives in Dayton. NCR, where she works, is moving to Georgia, as a means to make some money ( Georgia is paying them to come ) and to shed workers. Who wins in that situaton ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
It does require strongly held social institutions to avoid becoming destructive to essential human liberties, but in that it is not distinquishable from any other means of maintaining human society.
Do you mean a society that is tight knit to provide assistance to those who suffer under it ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does. Verifiably so.
Christian Graus wrote:
When it's not, only those below, will suffer.
It is the responsibility of the individual to be self sufficient enough to be prepared for inevitable down turns. That is the price of freedom. If you want opportunity to pursue happiness, you have to accept the risks inherent in a system that most efficiently provides that opporutnity. If you want a guarenteed standard of living less than what you could have provided for yourself given opportunity, than you shouldn't live in a capitalistic society.
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you mean a society that is tight knit to provide assistance to those who suffer under it ?
I mean a system like that which the US enjoyed througout most of its history.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does. Verifiably so.
Christian Graus wrote:
When it's not, only those below, will suffer.
It is the responsibility of the individual to be self sufficient enough to be prepared for inevitable down turns. That is the price of freedom. If you want opportunity to pursue happiness, you have to accept the risks inherent in a system that most efficiently provides that opporutnity. If you want a guarenteed standard of living less than what you could have provided for yourself given opportunity, than you shouldn't live in a capitalistic society.
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you mean a society that is tight knit to provide assistance to those who suffer under it ?
I mean a system like that which the US enjoyed througout most of its history.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
It is the responsibility of the individual to be self sufficient enough to be prepared for inevitable down turns
Easy for those who don't live hand to mouth, to say.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Yeah, I think they are making the wrong call, but they are trying to stop short term pain to society as a whole. Pain which must come out of a system of pure capitalism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
system of pure capitalism.
Christian, I have no idea what it would be like to live in a system of pure capitalism. But having an education that went past the 8th grade, I have no doubt that the US has not been such a society, at least since the time of Teddy Roosevelt. Trust me on this.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
system of pure capitalism.
Christian, I have no idea what it would be like to live in a system of pure capitalism. But having an education that went past the 8th grade, I have no doubt that the US has not been such a society, at least since the time of Teddy Roosevelt. Trust me on this.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
I have no doubt. My point is that things are just far enough in the middle that Stan can blame the government, and he may have some point, but to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Ok, explain this one to me - i'm not really savvy to the workings of our financial systems. Near as i can tell, Chrysler has been tossed around like a hot potato for the past few years; who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk? And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Ok, explain this one to me - i'm not really savvy to the workings of our financial systems. Near as i can tell, Chrysler has been tossed around like a hot potato for the past few years; who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk? And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
Shog9 wrote:
who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk?
I am just guessing.. Really stupid people or some intelligent vultures who thought they'd make some money from a merger?
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system
It's not quite dead, just in a vegetative state... kinda like Terri Schiavo. Think of the Chrysler deal as a feeding tube. I haven't read the details of the deal either.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic
He's sure making some dumb decisions, in particular the ones where he's keeping George W. Bush's failed policies. The Iraq invasion was a really stupid idea, the torture policies are frightening, the bank bailouts were a bad idea too.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Ok, explain this one to me - i'm not really savvy to the workings of our financial systems. Near as i can tell, Chrysler has been tossed around like a hot potato for the past few years; who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk? And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
Shog9 wrote:
who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk?
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Shog9 wrote:
And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
beats the living fuck out of me but you might as well live in some banana republic because the law, any law, is not worth the paper it is written on.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I have no doubt. My point is that things are just far enough in the middle that Stan can blame the government, and he may have some point, but to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Stan, Ilion, CSS - they all take a half-truth, twist it until its mother wouldn't recognize it in a bright light, then use the resulting logical mishmosh to 'prove' that unless their prescription if filled by the entire world within the next week, armageddon will be upon us. They are the internet equivalant of the guy with a big "repent" sign marching up and down in front of city hall and mumbling insults at passers-by.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system
It's not quite dead, just in a vegetative state... kinda like Terri Schiavo. Think of the Chrysler deal as a feeding tube. I haven't read the details of the deal either.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic
He's sure making some dumb decisions, in particular the ones where he's keeping George W. Bush's failed policies. The Iraq invasion was a really stupid idea, the torture policies are frightening, the bank bailouts were a bad idea too.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
the bank bailouts were a bad idea too.
How about running up a bigger deficit than all 43 of his predecessors combined?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Stan, Ilion, CSS - they all take a half-truth, twist it until its mother wouldn't recognize it in a bright light, then use the resulting logical mishmosh to 'prove' that unless their prescription if filled by the entire world within the next week, armageddon will be upon us. They are the internet equivalant of the guy with a big "repent" sign marching up and down in front of city hall and mumbling insults at passers-by.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
I rather suspect Stan suffers from wearing rose tinted spectacles. But to his benefit, he does involve himself in some interesting debates which is a damned sight more than anything the other two manage. Regarding Stan, I feel he is looking at his view of history, comparing it with the here and now and not liking what he sees and, in his own way, rebelling against what he perceives the future to be. A kind of insecurity I suppose.
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I rather suspect Stan suffers from wearing rose tinted spectacles. But to his benefit, he does involve himself in some interesting debates which is a damned sight more than anything the other two manage. Regarding Stan, I feel he is looking at his view of history, comparing it with the here and now and not liking what he sees and, in his own way, rebelling against what he perceives the future to be. A kind of insecurity I suppose.
What he shares with them is an inability to realise that his world-view is as limited as those he criticises and a pathological need to be right that makes me wonder if his parents punished him whenever he was wrong about anything. Also like our other two trolls, he insults anyone and everyone who disagrees with his interpetation of current of past events. (18 months ago he was denigrating anyone who criticized Bush's mishandling of the Iraqi occupation as a traitor.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Stan, Ilion, CSS - they all take a half-truth, twist it until its mother wouldn't recognize it in a bright light, then use the resulting logical mishmosh to 'prove' that unless their prescription if filled by the entire world within the next week, armageddon will be upon us. They are the internet equivalant of the guy with a big "repent" sign marching up and down in front of city hall and mumbling insults at passers-by.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
OK, how about this: you let me in, and I'll show you a really funny video.
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I rather suspect Stan suffers from wearing rose tinted spectacles. But to his benefit, he does involve himself in some interesting debates which is a damned sight more than anything the other two manage. Regarding Stan, I feel he is looking at his view of history, comparing it with the here and now and not liking what he sees and, in his own way, rebelling against what he perceives the future to be. A kind of insecurity I suppose.
Stan does not debate any more than CSS or Ilion do. He pontificates and pronounces. As soon as the facts turn against him, he changes the subject and begins to name call. A brief review of the thread above will rapidly confirm that.
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Shog9 wrote:
who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk?
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Shog9 wrote:
And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
beats the living fuck out of me but you might as well live in some banana republic because the law, any law, is not worth the paper it is written on.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Uh, ok. Is that usually how pension fund investors work then, plugging money into the doomed, hoping to recover most of it when the business goes under? If so, i guess i'm glad i don't have a pension.