Absolutely disgusting
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Ok, explain this one to me - i'm not really savvy to the workings of our financial systems. Near as i can tell, Chrysler has been tossed around like a hot potato for the past few years; who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk? And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Ok, explain this one to me - i'm not really savvy to the workings of our financial systems. Near as i can tell, Chrysler has been tossed around like a hot potato for the past few years; who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk? And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
Shog9 wrote:
who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk?
I am just guessing.. Really stupid people or some intelligent vultures who thought they'd make some money from a merger?
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system
It's not quite dead, just in a vegetative state... kinda like Terri Schiavo. Think of the Chrysler deal as a feeding tube. I haven't read the details of the deal either.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic
He's sure making some dumb decisions, in particular the ones where he's keeping George W. Bush's failed policies. The Iraq invasion was a really stupid idea, the torture policies are frightening, the bank bailouts were a bad idea too.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Ok, explain this one to me - i'm not really savvy to the workings of our financial systems. Near as i can tell, Chrysler has been tossed around like a hot potato for the past few years; who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk? And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
Shog9 wrote:
who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk?
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Shog9 wrote:
And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
beats the living fuck out of me but you might as well live in some banana republic because the law, any law, is not worth the paper it is written on.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I have no doubt. My point is that things are just far enough in the middle that Stan can blame the government, and he may have some point, but to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Stan, Ilion, CSS - they all take a half-truth, twist it until its mother wouldn't recognize it in a bright light, then use the resulting logical mishmosh to 'prove' that unless their prescription if filled by the entire world within the next week, armageddon will be upon us. They are the internet equivalant of the guy with a big "repent" sign marching up and down in front of city hall and mumbling insults at passers-by.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system
It's not quite dead, just in a vegetative state... kinda like Terri Schiavo. Think of the Chrysler deal as a feeding tube. I haven't read the details of the deal either.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic
He's sure making some dumb decisions, in particular the ones where he's keeping George W. Bush's failed policies. The Iraq invasion was a really stupid idea, the torture policies are frightening, the bank bailouts were a bad idea too.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
the bank bailouts were a bad idea too.
How about running up a bigger deficit than all 43 of his predecessors combined?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Stan, Ilion, CSS - they all take a half-truth, twist it until its mother wouldn't recognize it in a bright light, then use the resulting logical mishmosh to 'prove' that unless their prescription if filled by the entire world within the next week, armageddon will be upon us. They are the internet equivalant of the guy with a big "repent" sign marching up and down in front of city hall and mumbling insults at passers-by.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
I rather suspect Stan suffers from wearing rose tinted spectacles. But to his benefit, he does involve himself in some interesting debates which is a damned sight more than anything the other two manage. Regarding Stan, I feel he is looking at his view of history, comparing it with the here and now and not liking what he sees and, in his own way, rebelling against what he perceives the future to be. A kind of insecurity I suppose.
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I rather suspect Stan suffers from wearing rose tinted spectacles. But to his benefit, he does involve himself in some interesting debates which is a damned sight more than anything the other two manage. Regarding Stan, I feel he is looking at his view of history, comparing it with the here and now and not liking what he sees and, in his own way, rebelling against what he perceives the future to be. A kind of insecurity I suppose.
What he shares with them is an inability to realise that his world-view is as limited as those he criticises and a pathological need to be right that makes me wonder if his parents punished him whenever he was wrong about anything. Also like our other two trolls, he insults anyone and everyone who disagrees with his interpetation of current of past events. (18 months ago he was denigrating anyone who criticized Bush's mishandling of the Iraqi occupation as a traitor.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Stan, Ilion, CSS - they all take a half-truth, twist it until its mother wouldn't recognize it in a bright light, then use the resulting logical mishmosh to 'prove' that unless their prescription if filled by the entire world within the next week, armageddon will be upon us. They are the internet equivalant of the guy with a big "repent" sign marching up and down in front of city hall and mumbling insults at passers-by.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
OK, how about this: you let me in, and I'll show you a really funny video.
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I rather suspect Stan suffers from wearing rose tinted spectacles. But to his benefit, he does involve himself in some interesting debates which is a damned sight more than anything the other two manage. Regarding Stan, I feel he is looking at his view of history, comparing it with the here and now and not liking what he sees and, in his own way, rebelling against what he perceives the future to be. A kind of insecurity I suppose.
Stan does not debate any more than CSS or Ilion do. He pontificates and pronounces. As soon as the facts turn against him, he changes the subject and begins to name call. A brief review of the thread above will rapidly confirm that.
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Shog9 wrote:
who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk?
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Shog9 wrote:
And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
beats the living fuck out of me but you might as well live in some banana republic because the law, any law, is not worth the paper it is written on.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Uh, ok. Is that usually how pension fund investors work then, plugging money into the doomed, hoping to recover most of it when the business goes under? If so, i guess i'm glad i don't have a pension.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Uh, ok. Is that usually how pension fund investors work then, plugging money into the doomed, hoping to recover most of it when the business goes under? If so, i guess i'm glad i don't have a pension.
Shog9 wrote:
Uh, ok.
Glad you think so, but realize that you just witnessed the government over turn established law because it wasn't convenient to follow it.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Shog9 wrote:
Uh, ok.
Glad you think so, but realize that you just witnessed the government over turn established law because it wasn't convenient to follow it.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Glad you think so, but realize that you just witnessed the government over turn established law because it wasn't convenient to follow it.
Sure. Still waiting for the clarification on how, since they aren't being liquidated, this priority even comes into play. Look, if you are, or are close to, Indiana teachers, them you have my sympathy. I too have family likely to get the short end of the stick from a failing automaker. Lot of that going around, really. Hopefully the Indiana pensions at least hedged their bets a little...
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
If I understand correctly, the bond holders are now stock holders. If by chance, Fiat makes Chrysler profitable again the stock holders will see a profit - possibly more than they would have as bond holders after liquidation. Not that I agree with what the government is doing - I've been strongly against ALL of these bailouts (mortgages, banking, insurance, automobiles) from the beginning. As a US taxpayer (thus a current Chrysler stockholder) I'm rooting for a successful Fiat and suggest the old bond holders do the same. Same goes for GM. Obamanation will not be denied.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Glad you think so, but realize that you just witnessed the government over turn established law because it wasn't convenient to follow it.
Sure. Still waiting for the clarification on how, since they aren't being liquidated, this priority even comes into play. Look, if you are, or are close to, Indiana teachers, them you have my sympathy. I too have family likely to get the short end of the stick from a failing automaker. Lot of that going around, really. Hopefully the Indiana pensions at least hedged their bets a little...
Shog9 wrote:
Still waiting for the clarification on how, since they aren't being liquidated, this priority even comes into play.
that is the point, they should have been liquidated. the result of what was done is that a European company, Fiat, is given operational control of what still functions and the union gets a significant ownership position. stockholders get squat and bondholders get $ 0.29 on the dollar. following the 200 year precedent the company should have been liquidated and financial obligations fullfilled on a bondholder first other creditors second basis. what infuriates me is we've gone from a nation of laws and precedents to a "whatever feels good: banana republic, pretty much what happened in Europe (Germany and Italy) immediately prior to WWII.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Yep. Really nothing left to debate. It is all nothing now bad a very sad joke. But, heh, its a victory for liberals and libertarians everywhere, so I suppose someone is happy about it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Synaptrik wrote:
Or will they have more due to them being secured debt
They should receive more, much more. Obama's plan made the UAW into secured debt holders and the real ones got to go to the back of the line. They included lots of folks whose pension funds were heavily invested in the carmaker. And, to tell the truth I can't see the difference between being liquidated and being sold off to a foreign owner who doesn't want the plants, or the people - just a pared down dealer-network to sell its cars.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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But liquidation ends the life of the company where as the sale to Fiat was only some assets so that they could pull out of chapter 11 and become a viable if lighter company.
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
liquidation ends the life of the company
correct, and convenienmtly follows legal precedent.
Synaptrik wrote:
where as the sale to Fiat was only some assets
all assets, for free.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Shog9 wrote:
Still waiting for the clarification on how, since they aren't being liquidated, this priority even comes into play.
that is the point, they should have been liquidated. the result of what was done is that a European company, Fiat, is given operational control of what still functions and the union gets a significant ownership position. stockholders get squat and bondholders get $ 0.29 on the dollar. following the 200 year precedent the company should have been liquidated and financial obligations fullfilled on a bondholder first other creditors second basis. what infuriates me is we've gone from a nation of laws and precedents to a "whatever feels good: banana republic, pretty much what happened in Europe (Germany and Italy) immediately prior to WWII.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
stockholders get squat
AFAIK Chrysler was a privately held company, there were no stockholders, at least not of publicly traded shares. Which means there were ONLY bondholders and creditors. As you say, the bondholders should have been paid full value first (since they essentially held a mortgage on the assets that were sold to Fiat), then the remaining creditors which included the Union) paid from the leftovers, if any. I too fail to see how this was anything other than theft by government. It leaves the definition of "secured creditors" completely meaningless, and will almost certainly seriously erode the value of all corporate (and city, and state) bonds and make it more difficult for all the above to raise capital.
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But liquidation ends the life of the company where as the sale to Fiat was only some assets so that they could pull out of chapter 11 and become a viable if lighter company.
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
the sale to Fiat was only some assets
Most assets and the price that Fiat paid? It told Chrysler about the technology it uses to build small cars. That would be a joke if Obama hadn't blown billions of dollars on em to make Fiat think it was worth even that. Why did Chrysler's management agree to the deal? Maybe it has something to do with Fiat announcing that the top executives would not longer be considered the employees of the company that got a bailout and are therefore subject to a bonus cap, but Fiat employees seconded to its new subsidiary. "Any such seconded officer may receive supplemental employment compensation from Fiat ... notwithstanding any 'cap' on compensation payable to such officer ... under any Law, rule or policy applicable to the Company, saith the new owners.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin