Absolutely disgusting
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Stan Shannon wrote:
It simply provides the conditions essential to maximize the opportunities people have to benefit themselves.
No, it doesn't. It maximises opportunity for those at the top of the tree. That's all. So long as the benefit of those at the top, is the same as benefit to those below, that's fine. When it's not, only those below, will suffer. I have a friend who lives in Dayton. NCR, where she works, is moving to Georgia, as a means to make some money ( Georgia is paying them to come ) and to shed workers. Who wins in that situaton ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
It does require strongly held social institutions to avoid becoming destructive to essential human liberties, but in that it is not distinquishable from any other means of maintaining human society.
Do you mean a society that is tight knit to provide assistance to those who suffer under it ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does. Verifiably so.
Christian Graus wrote:
When it's not, only those below, will suffer.
It is the responsibility of the individual to be self sufficient enough to be prepared for inevitable down turns. That is the price of freedom. If you want opportunity to pursue happiness, you have to accept the risks inherent in a system that most efficiently provides that opporutnity. If you want a guarenteed standard of living less than what you could have provided for yourself given opportunity, than you shouldn't live in a capitalistic society.
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you mean a society that is tight knit to provide assistance to those who suffer under it ?
I mean a system like that which the US enjoyed througout most of its history.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does. Verifiably so.
Christian Graus wrote:
When it's not, only those below, will suffer.
It is the responsibility of the individual to be self sufficient enough to be prepared for inevitable down turns. That is the price of freedom. If you want opportunity to pursue happiness, you have to accept the risks inherent in a system that most efficiently provides that opporutnity. If you want a guarenteed standard of living less than what you could have provided for yourself given opportunity, than you shouldn't live in a capitalistic society.
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you mean a society that is tight knit to provide assistance to those who suffer under it ?
I mean a system like that which the US enjoyed througout most of its history.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
It is the responsibility of the individual to be self sufficient enough to be prepared for inevitable down turns
Easy for those who don't live hand to mouth, to say.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Yeah, I think they are making the wrong call, but they are trying to stop short term pain to society as a whole. Pain which must come out of a system of pure capitalism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
system of pure capitalism.
Christian, I have no idea what it would be like to live in a system of pure capitalism. But having an education that went past the 8th grade, I have no doubt that the US has not been such a society, at least since the time of Teddy Roosevelt. Trust me on this.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
system of pure capitalism.
Christian, I have no idea what it would be like to live in a system of pure capitalism. But having an education that went past the 8th grade, I have no doubt that the US has not been such a society, at least since the time of Teddy Roosevelt. Trust me on this.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
I have no doubt. My point is that things are just far enough in the middle that Stan can blame the government, and he may have some point, but to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Ok, explain this one to me - i'm not really savvy to the workings of our financial systems. Near as i can tell, Chrysler has been tossed around like a hot potato for the past few years; who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk? And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Ok, explain this one to me - i'm not really savvy to the workings of our financial systems. Near as i can tell, Chrysler has been tossed around like a hot potato for the past few years; who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk? And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
Shog9 wrote:
who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk?
I am just guessing.. Really stupid people or some intelligent vultures who thought they'd make some money from a merger?
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system
It's not quite dead, just in a vegetative state... kinda like Terri Schiavo. Think of the Chrysler deal as a feeding tube. I haven't read the details of the deal either.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic
He's sure making some dumb decisions, in particular the ones where he's keeping George W. Bush's failed policies. The Iraq invasion was a really stupid idea, the torture policies are frightening, the bank bailouts were a bad idea too.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Ok, explain this one to me - i'm not really savvy to the workings of our financial systems. Near as i can tell, Chrysler has been tossed around like a hot potato for the past few years; who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk? And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
Shog9 wrote:
who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk?
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Shog9 wrote:
And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
beats the living fuck out of me but you might as well live in some banana republic because the law, any law, is not worth the paper it is written on.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I have no doubt. My point is that things are just far enough in the middle that Stan can blame the government, and he may have some point, but to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Stan, Ilion, CSS - they all take a half-truth, twist it until its mother wouldn't recognize it in a bright light, then use the resulting logical mishmosh to 'prove' that unless their prescription if filled by the entire world within the next week, armageddon will be upon us. They are the internet equivalant of the guy with a big "repent" sign marching up and down in front of city hall and mumbling insults at passers-by.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Also dead is our financial system
It's not quite dead, just in a vegetative state... kinda like Terri Schiavo. Think of the Chrysler deal as a feeding tube. I haven't read the details of the deal either.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic
He's sure making some dumb decisions, in particular the ones where he's keeping George W. Bush's failed policies. The Iraq invasion was a really stupid idea, the torture policies are frightening, the bank bailouts were a bad idea too.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
the bank bailouts were a bad idea too.
How about running up a bigger deficit than all 43 of his predecessors combined?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Stan, Ilion, CSS - they all take a half-truth, twist it until its mother wouldn't recognize it in a bright light, then use the resulting logical mishmosh to 'prove' that unless their prescription if filled by the entire world within the next week, armageddon will be upon us. They are the internet equivalant of the guy with a big "repent" sign marching up and down in front of city hall and mumbling insults at passers-by.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
I rather suspect Stan suffers from wearing rose tinted spectacles. But to his benefit, he does involve himself in some interesting debates which is a damned sight more than anything the other two manage. Regarding Stan, I feel he is looking at his view of history, comparing it with the here and now and not liking what he sees and, in his own way, rebelling against what he perceives the future to be. A kind of insecurity I suppose.
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I rather suspect Stan suffers from wearing rose tinted spectacles. But to his benefit, he does involve himself in some interesting debates which is a damned sight more than anything the other two manage. Regarding Stan, I feel he is looking at his view of history, comparing it with the here and now and not liking what he sees and, in his own way, rebelling against what he perceives the future to be. A kind of insecurity I suppose.
What he shares with them is an inability to realise that his world-view is as limited as those he criticises and a pathological need to be right that makes me wonder if his parents punished him whenever he was wrong about anything. Also like our other two trolls, he insults anyone and everyone who disagrees with his interpetation of current of past events. (18 months ago he was denigrating anyone who criticized Bush's mishandling of the Iraqi occupation as a traitor.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
to suggest that a system that lets companies do what they want will benefit all, is ludicrous.
Stan, Ilion, CSS - they all take a half-truth, twist it until its mother wouldn't recognize it in a bright light, then use the resulting logical mishmosh to 'prove' that unless their prescription if filled by the entire world within the next week, armageddon will be upon us. They are the internet equivalant of the guy with a big "repent" sign marching up and down in front of city hall and mumbling insults at passers-by.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
OK, how about this: you let me in, and I'll show you a really funny video.
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I rather suspect Stan suffers from wearing rose tinted spectacles. But to his benefit, he does involve himself in some interesting debates which is a damned sight more than anything the other two manage. Regarding Stan, I feel he is looking at his view of history, comparing it with the here and now and not liking what he sees and, in his own way, rebelling against what he perceives the future to be. A kind of insecurity I suppose.
Stan does not debate any more than CSS or Ilion do. He pontificates and pronounces. As soon as the facts turn against him, he changes the subject and begins to name call. A brief review of the thread above will rapidly confirm that.
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Shog9 wrote:
who was buying these bonds thinking there was no risk?
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Shog9 wrote:
And how does it happen that Obama now controls the US Supreme Court?
beats the living fuck out of me but you might as well live in some banana republic because the law, any law, is not worth the paper it is written on.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Uh, ok. Is that usually how pension fund investors work then, plugging money into the doomed, hoping to recover most of it when the business goes under? If so, i guess i'm glad i don't have a pension.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
3 state of Indiana pension funds, ie., teachers, police and one other (don't remember the other). and if legal precedent were followed, all 200 years of it, bond holders would be first in line to recover their investment.
Uh, ok. Is that usually how pension fund investors work then, plugging money into the doomed, hoping to recover most of it when the business goes under? If so, i guess i'm glad i don't have a pension.
Shog9 wrote:
Uh, ok.
Glad you think so, but realize that you just witnessed the government over turn established law because it wasn't convenient to follow it.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Shog9 wrote:
Uh, ok.
Glad you think so, but realize that you just witnessed the government over turn established law because it wasn't convenient to follow it.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Glad you think so, but realize that you just witnessed the government over turn established law because it wasn't convenient to follow it.
Sure. Still waiting for the clarification on how, since they aren't being liquidated, this priority even comes into play. Look, if you are, or are close to, Indiana teachers, them you have my sympathy. I too have family likely to get the short end of the stick from a failing automaker. Lot of that going around, really. Hopefully the Indiana pensions at least hedged their bets a little...
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
If I understand correctly, the bond holders are now stock holders. If by chance, Fiat makes Chrysler profitable again the stock holders will see a profit - possibly more than they would have as bond holders after liquidation. Not that I agree with what the government is doing - I've been strongly against ALL of these bailouts (mortgages, banking, insurance, automobiles) from the beginning. As a US taxpayer (thus a current Chrysler stockholder) I'm rooting for a successful Fiat and suggest the old bond holders do the same. Same goes for GM. Obamanation will not be denied.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Glad you think so, but realize that you just witnessed the government over turn established law because it wasn't convenient to follow it.
Sure. Still waiting for the clarification on how, since they aren't being liquidated, this priority even comes into play. Look, if you are, or are close to, Indiana teachers, them you have my sympathy. I too have family likely to get the short end of the stick from a failing automaker. Lot of that going around, really. Hopefully the Indiana pensions at least hedged their bets a little...
Shog9 wrote:
Still waiting for the clarification on how, since they aren't being liquidated, this priority even comes into play.
that is the point, they should have been liquidated. the result of what was done is that a European company, Fiat, is given operational control of what still functions and the union gets a significant ownership position. stockholders get squat and bondholders get $ 0.29 on the dollar. following the 200 year precedent the company should have been liquidated and financial obligations fullfilled on a bondholder first other creditors second basis. what infuriates me is we've gone from a nation of laws and precedents to a "whatever feels good: banana republic, pretty much what happened in Europe (Germany and Italy) immediately prior to WWII.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Yep. Really nothing left to debate. It is all nothing now bad a very sad joke. But, heh, its a victory for liberals and libertarians everywhere, so I suppose someone is happy about it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.