Are software engineer that cheap?
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I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
See this: http://engineersalaries.blogspot.com/2007/04/shortage-of-engineers.html[^] In Alaska, new college graduates get 60k/years!
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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Why do you think 65K is high? I don't know about what the correct title is, but anyone who has been coding full time 3-5 years should make about 55-65K, 5-10 years 75-85K and 10 years + should make between 90-125K
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
It is an entry level position requiring 1 year or less of experience. Furthermore it is a QA position. I agree with your numbers on the years of experience.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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I agree with you. But the case here is that of Microsoft who is big employer and who determines standards. If i get a 10$ an hour job from local company who no body knew, i'd say yes or no without complaining at all, but it is Microsoft. The idea looks like this, this guy need an H1 so why pay him at all. 22$/hr is a lot of money. And this actually beats a local programmer who works in 40$/hr range and is offered 22$/hr. But the question is, is it fair? Is Microsoft so poor that it should not appreciate talent at all? Shouldn't there be standards? And i will tell you there is no job security, you can get laid off any time, how will you support yourself after traveling coast to coast?
sharp_k wrote:
Is Microsoft so poor that it should not appreciate talent at all?
This is a good question. Should a company like this one, with a CEO screaming loud Developers, Developers, Developers! consider their core skills not valuable, we could wonder how the shortage in IT skills, the desertion of science degrees, and the papy boom will be handled.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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I agree with you. But the case here is that of Microsoft who is big employer and who determines standards. If i get a 10$ an hour job from local company who no body knew, i'd say yes or no without complaining at all, but it is Microsoft. The idea looks like this, this guy need an H1 so why pay him at all. 22$/hr is a lot of money. And this actually beats a local programmer who works in 40$/hr range and is offered 22$/hr. But the question is, is it fair? Is Microsoft so poor that it should not appreciate talent at all? Shouldn't there be standards? And i will tell you there is no job security, you can get laid off any time, how will you support yourself after traveling coast to coast?
sharp_k wrote:
, is it fair?
No such thing in business.
sharp_k wrote:
Is Microsoft so poor
You don't make money paying people what they are worth. You make money by paying them just enough to keep them coming back for more. Us poor wage slaves seldom appreciate this as we're on the less desirable end of the transaction.
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See this: http://engineersalaries.blogspot.com/2007/04/shortage-of-engineers.html[^] In Alaska, new college graduates get 60k/years!
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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It is an entry level position requiring 1 year or less of experience. Furthermore it is a QA position. I agree with your numbers on the years of experience.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
OK, I misunderstood you. Any job requiring < 1 year experience is not going to pay well.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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kinar wrote:
45k for an entry level position
This is not 45k for an entry level position, this is 22$/hour without benefits for 6 months. Quite not a full-time job.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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sharp_k wrote:
, is it fair?
No such thing in business.
sharp_k wrote:
Is Microsoft so poor
You don't make money paying people what they are worth. You make money by paying them just enough to keep them coming back for more. Us poor wage slaves seldom appreciate this as we're on the less desirable end of the transaction.
thrakazog wrote:
You make money by paying them just enough to keep them coming back for more
That is a short term thinking. Companies like MS do have a strategic thinking, and try to balance their age pyramid. It is important for a company that size to ensure a constant flow of human resources. Given they cannot assume they will import all of their skills (visa quotas), they cannot offshore too much (strategic dev is onsite) they have a vested interest in the US remaining a place where young american people want to start engineering careers. And I'd add, the US has (an obvious) vested interest in trying to keep training new young minds in science and technology fields.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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Unless you have a real engineering degree, then title aside, you're not an engineer. For a first year job, with no real experience, it's 45K. That doesn't seem that bad for a newbie.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
Jim Crafton wrote:
Unless you have a real engineering degree
I am in the mood for some abuse today... Software Engineering != real engineering ;P
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Unless you have a real engineering degree
I am in the mood for some abuse today... Software Engineering != real engineering ;P
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
Gary Kirkham wrote:
real engineering
You mean real engineering for real men? The kind Chuck Norris does?
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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sharp_k wrote:
, is it fair?
No such thing in business.
sharp_k wrote:
Is Microsoft so poor
You don't make money paying people what they are worth. You make money by paying them just enough to keep them coming back for more. Us poor wage slaves seldom appreciate this as we're on the less desirable end of the transaction.
you said it well for a small company but not for Microsoft. If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft. But then you tell him/her, that you will get paid 22$/hr so do you think he/she would still pursue his/her goal? Are we appreciating his/her talent enough? Money does not matter but well it is the appreciate for the talent that you have. And most importantly Microsoft is rich! Their stocks may be down like every one else but money wise they are solid as rock. They have a strong monopology and literally every one is their customer. So well they are rich.
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you said it well for a small company but not for Microsoft. If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft. But then you tell him/her, that you will get paid 22$/hr so do you think he/she would still pursue his/her goal? Are we appreciating his/her talent enough? Money does not matter but well it is the appreciate for the talent that you have. And most importantly Microsoft is rich! Their stocks may be down like every one else but money wise they are solid as rock. They have a strong monopology and literally every one is their customer. So well they are rich.
sharp_k wrote:
And most importantly Microsoft is rich!
They didn't get that way by paying more than they have to for entry level labor (and won't stay that way if they change).
sharp_k wrote:
If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft.
I tell them to dream better dreams.
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you said it well for a small company but not for Microsoft. If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft. But then you tell him/her, that you will get paid 22$/hr so do you think he/she would still pursue his/her goal? Are we appreciating his/her talent enough? Money does not matter but well it is the appreciate for the talent that you have. And most importantly Microsoft is rich! Their stocks may be down like every one else but money wise they are solid as rock. They have a strong monopology and literally every one is their customer. So well they are rich.
sharp_k wrote:
So well they are rich
Rich is really beside the point. Weather it's Microsoft or Bob's Hotdog Stand, no business wants to pay more money for employees than they absolutely have to.
sharp_k wrote:
Are we appreciating his/her talent enough?
The $22/hr is how much they appreciate the talents required to do the job offered. If you feel you have talents beyond the requirements you'll need to find a job to match those to be paid for them. You might be a brain surgeon. But unless you're going to be preforming operations while your testing their software don't expect to be paid for the skills you aren't using.
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sharp_k wrote:
And most importantly Microsoft is rich!
They didn't get that way by paying more than they have to for entry level labor (and won't stay that way if they change).
sharp_k wrote:
If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft.
I tell them to dream better dreams.
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They do have to pay a hefty amount to import everything. And they can see Russia from their house. :-D
If the us economy remains bad too long, they might get their way into authorizing offshore drilling. Ouch! :~
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineer[^] It says Texas regulates the use of the term "Software Engineer". And even more, Texas bans anyone from writing real-time code without an engineering license. Well quite nice since they have all this staff working on space related products.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Only a real engineer could get the mars rover to actually hit its target. ;)
Todd Smith
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I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
Without benefits, that sounds low to me. Fifteen years ago my first real programming job was a three month contact at $40/hr.
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I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
The middleman will always take a % cut. Why don't you directly apply at Microsoft? Their pay levels are pretty decent (as far as I've heard).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
sharp_k wrote:
, is it fair?
No such thing in business.
sharp_k wrote:
Is Microsoft so poor
You don't make money paying people what they are worth. You make money by paying them just enough to keep them coming back for more. Us poor wage slaves seldom appreciate this as we're on the less desirable end of the transaction.
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This is what i think but it can be microsoft as well from behind. But my point is should this practice be allowed? It hurts everything, talent, competition and Microsoft itself (if they are not at fault). This is like an indian agency who recruits for microsoft. I am sure they are really hurting competitors but well may be not, my point is, is this practice be allowed?
sharp_k wrote:
But my point is should this practice be allowed?
Of course it should be allowed. What's the alternative? Department of Homeland Salaries? On the other hand, you could just laugh at them! I agree with another poster (or yourself) that if this if this is a temp agency placing you at Microsoft, then they would be invoicing for a lot larger number... If you can get more money elsewhere, bin the offer, maybe with a polite No (you might need them later!). If you desperately need a job, then say yes while continuing to look elsewhere. You might see a position at Microsoft as an investment in itself. Maybe you'll impress your coworkers, and end up applying for a real job there. Iain.
I have now moved to Sweden for love (awwww). If you're in Scandinavia and want an MVP on the payroll (or happy with a remote worker), or need cotract work done, give me a job! http://cv.imcsoft.co.uk/[^]