Are software engineer that cheap?
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sharp_k wrote:
, is it fair?
No such thing in business.
sharp_k wrote:
Is Microsoft so poor
You don't make money paying people what they are worth. You make money by paying them just enough to keep them coming back for more. Us poor wage slaves seldom appreciate this as we're on the less desirable end of the transaction.
you said it well for a small company but not for Microsoft. If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft. But then you tell him/her, that you will get paid 22$/hr so do you think he/she would still pursue his/her goal? Are we appreciating his/her talent enough? Money does not matter but well it is the appreciate for the talent that you have. And most importantly Microsoft is rich! Their stocks may be down like every one else but money wise they are solid as rock. They have a strong monopology and literally every one is their customer. So well they are rich.
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you said it well for a small company but not for Microsoft. If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft. But then you tell him/her, that you will get paid 22$/hr so do you think he/she would still pursue his/her goal? Are we appreciating his/her talent enough? Money does not matter but well it is the appreciate for the talent that you have. And most importantly Microsoft is rich! Their stocks may be down like every one else but money wise they are solid as rock. They have a strong monopology and literally every one is their customer. So well they are rich.
sharp_k wrote:
And most importantly Microsoft is rich!
They didn't get that way by paying more than they have to for entry level labor (and won't stay that way if they change).
sharp_k wrote:
If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft.
I tell them to dream better dreams.
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you said it well for a small company but not for Microsoft. If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft. But then you tell him/her, that you will get paid 22$/hr so do you think he/she would still pursue his/her goal? Are we appreciating his/her talent enough? Money does not matter but well it is the appreciate for the talent that you have. And most importantly Microsoft is rich! Their stocks may be down like every one else but money wise they are solid as rock. They have a strong monopology and literally every one is their customer. So well they are rich.
sharp_k wrote:
So well they are rich
Rich is really beside the point. Weather it's Microsoft or Bob's Hotdog Stand, no business wants to pay more money for employees than they absolutely have to.
sharp_k wrote:
Are we appreciating his/her talent enough?
The $22/hr is how much they appreciate the talents required to do the job offered. If you feel you have talents beyond the requirements you'll need to find a job to match those to be paid for them. You might be a brain surgeon. But unless you're going to be preforming operations while your testing their software don't expect to be paid for the skills you aren't using.
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sharp_k wrote:
And most importantly Microsoft is rich!
They didn't get that way by paying more than they have to for entry level labor (and won't stay that way if they change).
sharp_k wrote:
If you have a nephew/niece who says i have a dream to work for Microsoft.
I tell them to dream better dreams.
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They do have to pay a hefty amount to import everything. And they can see Russia from their house. :-D
If the us economy remains bad too long, they might get their way into authorizing offshore drilling. Ouch! :~
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineer[^] It says Texas regulates the use of the term "Software Engineer". And even more, Texas bans anyone from writing real-time code without an engineering license. Well quite nice since they have all this staff working on space related products.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Only a real engineer could get the mars rover to actually hit its target. ;)
Todd Smith
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I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
Without benefits, that sounds low to me. Fifteen years ago my first real programming job was a three month contact at $40/hr.
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I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
The middleman will always take a % cut. Why don't you directly apply at Microsoft? Their pay levels are pretty decent (as far as I've heard).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
sharp_k wrote:
, is it fair?
No such thing in business.
sharp_k wrote:
Is Microsoft so poor
You don't make money paying people what they are worth. You make money by paying them just enough to keep them coming back for more. Us poor wage slaves seldom appreciate this as we're on the less desirable end of the transaction.
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This is what i think but it can be microsoft as well from behind. But my point is should this practice be allowed? It hurts everything, talent, competition and Microsoft itself (if they are not at fault). This is like an indian agency who recruits for microsoft. I am sure they are really hurting competitors but well may be not, my point is, is this practice be allowed?
sharp_k wrote:
But my point is should this practice be allowed?
Of course it should be allowed. What's the alternative? Department of Homeland Salaries? On the other hand, you could just laugh at them! I agree with another poster (or yourself) that if this if this is a temp agency placing you at Microsoft, then they would be invoicing for a lot larger number... If you can get more money elsewhere, bin the offer, maybe with a polite No (you might need them later!). If you desperately need a job, then say yes while continuing to look elsewhere. You might see a position at Microsoft as an investment in itself. Maybe you'll impress your coworkers, and end up applying for a real job there. Iain.
I have now moved to Sweden for love (awwww). If you're in Scandinavia and want an MVP on the payroll (or happy with a remote worker), or need cotract work done, give me a job! http://cv.imcsoft.co.uk/[^]
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I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
Get more working at Maccie D's. So no.
Software Kinetics (requires SL3 beta) - Moving software
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Without benefits, that sounds low to me. Fifteen years ago my first real programming job was a three month contact at $40/hr.
Really? My first was the equivalent of about $8 an hour, as the only developer maintaining hundreds of legacy apps along with development of new ones (mix of VB6 / C# / C++ / .NET / SQL).
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Well, actually, most of my co-workers call me: Sir Troy, Slayer of bugs, Destroyer of Windows and Grand Software Master ... but I'm not picky ... Sr Software Developer works too ... so long as they don't forget to kneel first. :-\
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTLI'm less formal. I just have them kiss my ring.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Only a real engineer could get the mars rover to actually hit its target. ;)
Todd Smith
Todd Smith wrote:
Only a real engineer could get the mars rover to actually hit its target.
Only a good engineer could get the mars rover to actually soft-land on its target.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
22/hr for 6 months is not 45k a year
Especially without benefits, that looks more like 30k
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Unless you have a real engineering degree
I am in the mood for some abuse today... Software Engineering != real engineering ;P
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
I guess it's a little off the original topic, but there is no reason that software engineering should not be considered "real" engineering. It's just that (at least in my experience) 90% of the software dev out there is done by unorganized, fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants organizations with no processes and no rigorous design or testing. Most of the time it's just so easy to make changes that there is no incentive to make sure you get it right the first time. And in those cases, no, I agree that the term "engineer" does not apply in any way. But when software is done with careful planning and processes there is no reason not to consider it engineering. That's my two cents, anyways. And to the original poster, I made 25K my first job out of school with a comp sci degree and I thought it was way too low at the time, but in retrospect getting my foot in the door at the right company and getting the real world experience proved to be a great move. And the real question is how much do you make now and how many other offers do you have? $22/hr is a whole lot better than $0/hr.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Unless you have a real engineering degree
I am in the mood for some abuse today... Software Engineering != real engineering ;P
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
You won't get any abuse from me. I'm a software developer based in Detroit. I am acquainted with quite a few mechanical engineers and electrical engineers who work in the auto industry. The disciplines are not even remotely the same as software "engineering". A process engineer might be the closest analogue. Even then, I would hazard that the skill sets are still very different. A mechanical engineer has to know physics, the material he's working with (be it metal, plastic, wood, etc.), three-dimensional design, how to design a part to meet a cost target, assembly ease target, and serviceability target, among many other things. There is very little overlap with the sort of process "engineering" that a software developer does, and I think that the software design process tends to be less involved with so many different disciplines (such as metallurgy, etc.) as a mechanical engineer's process is. I do some pretty complex stuff, and the mechanical engineers are duly impressed when I can fix their computer issues in a matter of minutes. These are two highly technical fields, and people who are good in their field are deserving of the respect they tend to get. But "engineering" is a misnomer for what goes on in most software development shops; although I must admit I'm a bit hard pressed at the moment to coin a better term. As far as $22/hour is concerned, I would've jumped out of my socks for joy had someone offered me that in my first computer-related job. Even now, that's not a bad wage for a beginner. Can a good software developer make more as an employee? Sure, I make double that. But I wasn't worth that amount my first time out of academia. The OP ought to take a long, hard look at the career he's chosen if he thinks he somehow deserves an upper middle class lifestyle right out the gate. It's going to take hard work, my friend, and lots of it. You want quick money go sell meth. Anybody can do that. :omg: If you want to earn a comfortable living in a job that challenges you and helps keep your mind nimble, then work in the software industry, but don't expect to ever become wealthy.
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I offer a handy dandy rate calculator so you can effectively judge what you should be paid hourly as a contractor, here: [^] Salary.com suggests the Title of Software Engineer I can bank 65k a year plus benefits. Considering that I find that rather high and hard to believe I will use a base number of 36k because I think it is a nice number. Your young so retirement isn't that big of an issue but if you through in 2500 per year of health insurance and 1500 a year for retirement into my calculator it suggests you should be paid $23.8/hr to make 36k a year. So long story short, for a noob that is pretty good and much more than I made straight from college.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
I think your rate calculator is great! :-D
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sharp_k wrote:
But my point is should this practice be allowed?
Of course it should be allowed. What's the alternative? Department of Homeland Salaries? On the other hand, you could just laugh at them! I agree with another poster (or yourself) that if this if this is a temp agency placing you at Microsoft, then they would be invoicing for a lot larger number... If you can get more money elsewhere, bin the offer, maybe with a polite No (you might need them later!). If you desperately need a job, then say yes while continuing to look elsewhere. You might see a position at Microsoft as an investment in itself. Maybe you'll impress your coworkers, and end up applying for a real job there. Iain.
I have now moved to Sweden for love (awwww). If you're in Scandinavia and want an MVP on the payroll (or happy with a remote worker), or need cotract work done, give me a job! http://cv.imcsoft.co.uk/[^]
The conclusion that i arrived is that it is the agency who is making big here. I have never received such a low offer from any other agency working for MS but well there are other indian agencies who offer in 20's as well. Should this practice be allowed, No. Abosolutely not but it is very hard to stop it at this stage. Remember this is not one of those american companies who works by american standard. This is run by Indian people and that is why this male practice. A way to stop is basically Microsoft itself impose restrictions on the contractors that i am paying you this and the contracter should be paid atleast this much. That will be a boon for people who seek employment through these agencies. And it will bring some fairness to the game. Coz remember there is not stoppage for these agencies and they can go as low as 15$ or even 10$ an hour. It is only a matter of time that it will ge their. When people start a bad practice they take it to the limits. Well but if it is Microsoft itself who pays that low (which i am not sure of), then the agencies are not fault. I am just raising voice against this male practices, not for my own.
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22 * 40 * 52 = 45760 That's for a full year, before taxes, and without any benefits, not even vacations, but it does come to 45K.