Are software engineer that cheap?
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
22/hr for 6 months is not 45k a year
Especially without benefits, that looks more like 30k
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Unless you have a real engineering degree
I am in the mood for some abuse today... Software Engineering != real engineering ;P
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
I guess it's a little off the original topic, but there is no reason that software engineering should not be considered "real" engineering. It's just that (at least in my experience) 90% of the software dev out there is done by unorganized, fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants organizations with no processes and no rigorous design or testing. Most of the time it's just so easy to make changes that there is no incentive to make sure you get it right the first time. And in those cases, no, I agree that the term "engineer" does not apply in any way. But when software is done with careful planning and processes there is no reason not to consider it engineering. That's my two cents, anyways. And to the original poster, I made 25K my first job out of school with a comp sci degree and I thought it was way too low at the time, but in retrospect getting my foot in the door at the right company and getting the real world experience proved to be a great move. And the real question is how much do you make now and how many other offers do you have? $22/hr is a whole lot better than $0/hr.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Unless you have a real engineering degree
I am in the mood for some abuse today... Software Engineering != real engineering ;P
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
You won't get any abuse from me. I'm a software developer based in Detroit. I am acquainted with quite a few mechanical engineers and electrical engineers who work in the auto industry. The disciplines are not even remotely the same as software "engineering". A process engineer might be the closest analogue. Even then, I would hazard that the skill sets are still very different. A mechanical engineer has to know physics, the material he's working with (be it metal, plastic, wood, etc.), three-dimensional design, how to design a part to meet a cost target, assembly ease target, and serviceability target, among many other things. There is very little overlap with the sort of process "engineering" that a software developer does, and I think that the software design process tends to be less involved with so many different disciplines (such as metallurgy, etc.) as a mechanical engineer's process is. I do some pretty complex stuff, and the mechanical engineers are duly impressed when I can fix their computer issues in a matter of minutes. These are two highly technical fields, and people who are good in their field are deserving of the respect they tend to get. But "engineering" is a misnomer for what goes on in most software development shops; although I must admit I'm a bit hard pressed at the moment to coin a better term. As far as $22/hour is concerned, I would've jumped out of my socks for joy had someone offered me that in my first computer-related job. Even now, that's not a bad wage for a beginner. Can a good software developer make more as an employee? Sure, I make double that. But I wasn't worth that amount my first time out of academia. The OP ought to take a long, hard look at the career he's chosen if he thinks he somehow deserves an upper middle class lifestyle right out the gate. It's going to take hard work, my friend, and lots of it. You want quick money go sell meth. Anybody can do that. :omg: If you want to earn a comfortable living in a job that challenges you and helps keep your mind nimble, then work in the software industry, but don't expect to ever become wealthy.
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I offer a handy dandy rate calculator so you can effectively judge what you should be paid hourly as a contractor, here: [^] Salary.com suggests the Title of Software Engineer I can bank 65k a year plus benefits. Considering that I find that rather high and hard to believe I will use a base number of 36k because I think it is a nice number. Your young so retirement isn't that big of an issue but if you through in 2500 per year of health insurance and 1500 a year for retirement into my calculator it suggests you should be paid $23.8/hr to make 36k a year. So long story short, for a noob that is pretty good and much more than I made straight from college.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
I think your rate calculator is great! :-D
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sharp_k wrote:
But my point is should this practice be allowed?
Of course it should be allowed. What's the alternative? Department of Homeland Salaries? On the other hand, you could just laugh at them! I agree with another poster (or yourself) that if this if this is a temp agency placing you at Microsoft, then they would be invoicing for a lot larger number... If you can get more money elsewhere, bin the offer, maybe with a polite No (you might need them later!). If you desperately need a job, then say yes while continuing to look elsewhere. You might see a position at Microsoft as an investment in itself. Maybe you'll impress your coworkers, and end up applying for a real job there. Iain.
I have now moved to Sweden for love (awwww). If you're in Scandinavia and want an MVP on the payroll (or happy with a remote worker), or need cotract work done, give me a job! http://cv.imcsoft.co.uk/[^]
The conclusion that i arrived is that it is the agency who is making big here. I have never received such a low offer from any other agency working for MS but well there are other indian agencies who offer in 20's as well. Should this practice be allowed, No. Abosolutely not but it is very hard to stop it at this stage. Remember this is not one of those american companies who works by american standard. This is run by Indian people and that is why this male practice. A way to stop is basically Microsoft itself impose restrictions on the contractors that i am paying you this and the contracter should be paid atleast this much. That will be a boon for people who seek employment through these agencies. And it will bring some fairness to the game. Coz remember there is not stoppage for these agencies and they can go as low as 15$ or even 10$ an hour. It is only a matter of time that it will ge their. When people start a bad practice they take it to the limits. Well but if it is Microsoft itself who pays that low (which i am not sure of), then the agencies are not fault. I am just raising voice against this male practices, not for my own.
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22 * 40 * 52 = 45760 That's for a full year, before taxes, and without any benefits, not even vacations, but it does come to 45K.
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You won't get any abuse from me. I'm a software developer based in Detroit. I am acquainted with quite a few mechanical engineers and electrical engineers who work in the auto industry. The disciplines are not even remotely the same as software "engineering". A process engineer might be the closest analogue. Even then, I would hazard that the skill sets are still very different. A mechanical engineer has to know physics, the material he's working with (be it metal, plastic, wood, etc.), three-dimensional design, how to design a part to meet a cost target, assembly ease target, and serviceability target, among many other things. There is very little overlap with the sort of process "engineering" that a software developer does, and I think that the software design process tends to be less involved with so many different disciplines (such as metallurgy, etc.) as a mechanical engineer's process is. I do some pretty complex stuff, and the mechanical engineers are duly impressed when I can fix their computer issues in a matter of minutes. These are two highly technical fields, and people who are good in their field are deserving of the respect they tend to get. But "engineering" is a misnomer for what goes on in most software development shops; although I must admit I'm a bit hard pressed at the moment to coin a better term. As far as $22/hour is concerned, I would've jumped out of my socks for joy had someone offered me that in my first computer-related job. Even now, that's not a bad wage for a beginner. Can a good software developer make more as an employee? Sure, I make double that. But I wasn't worth that amount my first time out of academia. The OP ought to take a long, hard look at the career he's chosen if he thinks he somehow deserves an upper middle class lifestyle right out the gate. It's going to take hard work, my friend, and lots of it. You want quick money go sell meth. Anybody can do that. :omg: If you want to earn a comfortable living in a job that challenges you and helps keep your mind nimble, then work in the software industry, but don't expect to ever become wealthy.
I would literally work for free, money does not matter but there is something wrong here. It is like the agency selling H1's rather than interested in quality people. And not appreciating the talent. Of course by that standard i can pay my employee 5$/hr and he/she should not complain. There should be some ethics. That is why i brought it here.
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I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
Microsoft pays vendors a fixed rate for each type of position. Occasionally a MS group can pay more if they choose. There is no fixed percentage that a vendor must pay the contractor. Therefore they try to find any barily qualified individual at the lowest rate possible to maximize the spread and their profit. The best bet is to agree to the price and take the interview at MS. If they like you and you get an offer then talk to the MS person that has the open position. Tell them the crappy rate you are being offered and they can put pressure on the vendor.
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I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
Vendor outsourced positions at Microsoft are available to ALL MS approved vendors. Some vendors are better than others (pay a higher percentage of the hourly rate). Among the worst vendors is Volt. You can call up another vendor and ask about the position and have them submit your resume. Try Aditi.
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Microsoft pays vendors a fixed rate for each type of position. Occasionally a MS group can pay more if they choose. There is no fixed percentage that a vendor must pay the contractor. Therefore they try to find any barily qualified individual at the lowest rate possible to maximize the spread and their profit. The best bet is to agree to the price and take the interview at MS. If they like you and you get an offer then talk to the MS person that has the open position. Tell them the crappy rate you are being offered and they can put pressure on the vendor.
schmidtty wrote:
they can put pressure
Good idea. Actually, I think that is his point. He was wondering if this should be allowed. And the answer is no. If when interviewing with MS, they are interested in his skills, but he says he has issues with the rate that is passed on to him, they might consider using variable rates rather than fixed rates. And in the end, the large companies cannot ignore the fact vendors are only trying to maximize their spread by throwing any barely qualified individuals they can grab.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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Vendor outsourced positions at Microsoft are available to ALL MS approved vendors. Some vendors are better than others (pay a higher percentage of the hourly rate). Among the worst vendors is Volt. You can call up another vendor and ask about the position and have them submit your resume. Try Aditi.
Volt is actually a shinning star if you look at these other indian agencies who pay you nothing, honestly. Volt give you free training (almost free) and I never received an offer from Volt in 20's but from these other indian agencies, i never receive an offer in 30's. For a level 3 position they might offer you 33$ (when the position itself says money should not be a problem :))
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I'm less formal. I just have them kiss my ring.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary, People around here don't seem to like our Demi-God like expectations ... whatever could be wrong with them? ;)
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTL -
I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
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Gary, People around here don't seem to like our Demi-God like expectations ... whatever could be wrong with them? ;)
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTL"Sire, the peasants are revolting!" "They sure are, they stink on ice."
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
I make $23.50/h (+benifits) as a software engineer in Yakima, WA (East of the mountains)and that is fairly good money compaired to the cost of living here (note 4 person family, sole income). But to surive in Redmond and the cost of living on the coast, I would think the min would be around 60~65/h. Yes I know that Redmond is not costal front, but on the east side of the state, everything on the other side of the mountains is the coast.
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If it came with benefits I'd say it was a reasonable rate for an entry level developer position in most of the country (a few places like Manhattan/San Francisco being exceptions); as it is I have to wonder if they're putting it out so that they can say "we can't get an american to fill the job, give us an H1B visa".
The European Way of War: Blow your own continent up. The American Way of War: Go over and help them.
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Why do you think 65K is high? I don't know about what the correct title is, but anyone who has been coding full time 3-5 years should make about 55-65K, 5-10 years 75-85K and 10 years + should make between 90-125K
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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Why do you think 65K is high? I don't know about what the correct title is, but anyone who has been coding full time 3-5 years should make about 55-65K, 5-10 years 75-85K and 10 years + should make between 90-125K
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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Which is so far out of line with other technical fields it explains why there is so much out sourcing.
Are you joking or serious?
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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I would literally work for free, money does not matter but there is something wrong here. It is like the agency selling H1's rather than interested in quality people. And not appreciating the talent. Of course by that standard i can pay my employee 5$/hr and he/she should not complain. There should be some ethics. That is why i brought it here.
Whoever told you that your wages are a form of "appreciation" needs to go back to Econ 101. A wage represents what you agree to sell your services for to your employer. It is a simple economic transaction. You give them something, and they pay you. The price is set by a couple of factors. One is the average market price for a person who performs this, or a similar job. The other is perceived value. An employer might offer more than the typical market rate to somebody that they think brings more to the table than just what is being asked for. Or they might offer less to somebody who doesn't quite fit the requirements, but shows some potential to grow into the job. Employers don't employ people to "appreciate" them with a paycheck. Employers employ people because they hope it furthers whatever business they are in, and they hope that they can make a profit on the investment they make in employing someone. It comes down to this: nobody owes you a job at any rate. $22/hour is all you could command under those particular circumstances, unless you successfully negotiate a higher rate. If you don't like the rate and consider it insulting, walk away politely. If you think there might be room for negotiation, then negotiate. But don't work under the misapprehension that your wages are anything other than what the employer judges your monetary worth is to their organization, because they're not. If you are ever fortunate enough to employ someone, you will realize just how foolish you are being, and you will eat the words you have written about how by an employer's standard people should be happy to work for $5/hour. Incidentally, young man, I *have* worked for $5 an hour, and at the time I was damn glad to get it. But I fearlessly predict that you will never employ anyone. Your attitude is completely wrong, and you would fail in any business venture unless you change it. And if you would work for free, congratulations. You've found a wonderful hobby. If you're lucky enough to turn it into compensation, you're ahead of the game. You don't know what the agency is selling to anyone, unless you work for the agency or have some type of connection to somebody there who does, so stop making that accusation. It's BS. --Geoff