Am I a programming snob?

jbradshaw

I am a developer who has been developing software for over 20 years. I currently work mostly in C# and ASP.Net with some VB.Net and SQL. I have a BS in CS. So I've got programming chops. My question - I usually think more highly of a C# programmer than a VB.Net programmer. Is that justified? I think it comes from seeing 'programmers' who had used VB6 and find they don't know anything. Are C# programmers 'better' (more experienced/better coders/more thorough) than VB.Net programmers. It almost seems like C# are the more technical of the bunch. Another reason for asking is that we are in the process of hiring a programmer and have gotten almost nobody with C# but a lot with VB.Net. Should I do all new projects in VB.Net so somebody can take them over (I'm the only developer at the moment). Flames won't be appreciated so please don't bother.... TIA - Jeff

R Giskard Reventlov

Yes.

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Simon P Stevens

There is a culture difference. There's an interesting article Here[^] that raises most of the points I would have raised, but saves me having to type them.

Simon

Distind

Frankly, converting between the two isn't hard. The only major difference I come across regularly is I have to be more explicit in overloading functions in C#. As for my background, I started in C++, learned C# very briefly(3 weeks), wound up hired to support a C# Application in a VB.net shop as a coop. I don't want to knock anyone else out of a job, but anyone there could have written the C# that needed to be done if they looked up the basic syntax and major differences between the two languages(which there are many references for). By the time I left that coop I had a year of VB.net under my belt. At the moment I switch between the two like it's nothing and have wound up converting functions between the languages when things I do at home in C# would be useful at work where it's VB.net. If you've got the time to blow, give them coding tests with the option of VB.net or C#, if they give good answers from a structure and logic aspect, take the two weeks to have them learn the differences and they should be able to do it just fine.

Maximilien

Yes you are a snob (hey, you said it first!) Judge people by their accomplishments more than what the tools/languages they are using.

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moon_stick

IMHO, people who have some formal education in OO languages and principles in the past 10-20 years have probably used a language with more of a 'C' style syntax so if they end up doing .NET development they naturally gravitate towards C# rather than VB.NET. People who are using VB are seemingly more often from a VB6 background where their development team has 'upgraded' to VB.NET but this move forces a syntax change rather than a programming mindset change and I think that's where a lot of the VB.NET vs C# rivalry comes in. This isn't to say that a VB.NET programmer always has poor OO skills and a C# developer always have good ones but from what I've seen, it tends to be the case. I'm a little suprised that you've seen more applicants with a VB.NET background - I've always considered C# to be the more popular of the two languages. I personally wouldn't change my development environment to suit incoming candidates; I feel it's better to hold out for a suitable candidate who matches your needs than the other way round. HTH

It definitely isn't definatley

modified on Wednesday, September 30, 2009 10:14 AM

David Crow

jbradshaw wrote:

My question - I usually think more highly of a C# programmer than a VB.Net programmer. Is that justified?

You're welcome to your opinion. Openly expressing that opinion would not be looked upon very highly, however.

jbradshaw wrote:

I think it comes from seeing 'programmers' who had used VB6 and find they don't know anything.

That has nothing to do with VB. That's a human trait, plain and simple. It could be applied to any vocation.

jbradshaw wrote:

Are C# programmers 'better' (more experienced/better coders/more thorough) than VB.Net programmers.

The term "better" is very subjective. I saw a quote many years ago that I wish I could remember. It went something like, "There's one thing that all drivers can agree upon -- we're all the best driver on the road." It's almost like asking who is the better doctor. Is it really a fair comparison to compare a general practitioner with a podiatrist with a endocrinologist?

jbradshaw wrote:

Another reason for asking is that we are in the process of hiring a programmer and have gotten almost nobody with C# but a lot with VB.Net.

A true programmer can take up any language and go with it. You should really be looking for someone that can solve problems, regardless of the tool being used.

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User 3325940

Yes, I think you probably are. If you would like to see an example of someone who has excellent credentials and is very comfortable with VB and somewhat intimidated by C#, check out Julia Lerman and her book "Programming Entity Framework". Julia states herself that she has not done much with C# and does most of her work in VB. Her book is an excellent reference source and I find her writing quite engaging and very concise. As for my programming 'chops', I have been programming for 40 years and got my degree before they had a Computer Science department at most universities. We all took 'math classes'. I have migrated from Cobol and Fortran to Basic, C, C++, VB, C# with many asides along the way. My first commercial program was hand coded in hexadecimal. I currently do most of my work in C++ and VB with forays in to C# when I find it necessary. The reason for VB is that is what the customer wants. VB and C# are the same language. You only have to pay your 'Sin' tax to convert between the two. The real worth of a programmer is in their ability to abstract the problem in to logical constructs independent of the language toolset they are accustomed to. I think if you delve a little deeper you might find some gems in the rough scattered among those VB programmers you find littering your path.

Distind

I have to dig at this a bit, would you expect this to apply to new programmers who have learned VB.net without a background in VB6?

Lost User

Hmm... how many VB programmers have heard of design patterns?

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jbradshaw

I knew this was going to spark a flood of conversations but that's good. I agree with a lot of what people are saying. The actual languages aren't really that different. The problem I guess is what was said in that article. I have found VB programmers, frequently out of inexperience, don't handle the 'what if' to well. While that's changing with VB.Net, it's still true. For instance - assigning a string to a number and having the language take care of it. I completely agree that there are really good VB/VB.Net programmers out there. There's no way to say it politically correct so I'll just say it - I've seen good programmers and bad programmers using either language. I guess because there's a lot more VB programmers who don't have formal training (whether it be college or work training) there is a lot of bad code out there. Yes I realize there's lot of bad C/C++/C# but it doesn't seem a prevelant. Some of it has to do with the fact the language (VB) handles lots of stuff for you so I've seen lots of code where a programmer will do something and the language will handle conversions. Let's just hope it's what you intended. Let me give you another example: for the position we are looking for, we interviewed a guy who seemed pretty good. My boss asked him for the most complicated code he had written so I could review it. (he was a little light on the .Net but had done lots of Access and SQL which are also what we needed.) What he sent was about 10 routines that were in VB.Net modules even though they would have been very easily put in a class. I didn't even know what a module was and had to go look it up. To me that says he doesn't really understand the concept of OO. So I guess it's not the actual languages, it's the personality of the developer. C# attracts more technical 'geeky' people. VB.Net are less technical but get the job done; usually quickly. So having said that, I'm sure the flames and the comment wars are going to start. J.

Jim Crafton

C#? C'mon, you're all a bunch of fluff puppies and sissies in my book!

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Ian Shlasko

The issue that I've found isn't that C# programmers are better than VB.NET programmers... The issue, I think, is that VB.NET has been a lightning rod for the old VBA crowd. Generally, people stick with the syntax they're familiar with... C/Pascal programmers moved up the C-style tree to C#... QBasic/COBOL programmers moved up their tree to VB.NET. There's really nothing wrong with either branch, as they suit their purposes. The trick is that the latter set has always been seen as more accessible to the people who are computer literate, but lack the mindset of a real programmer. Nowadays, people learn Excel or Access really well, then start dabbling in macros, then figure they can do fancier things in VBA. Now, VBA may have some of the features of an object-oriented language, but I think most people would agree that it doesn't really encourage good programming practices. Those kinds of people are likely to give VB.NET a bad reputation when they decide to try something a little shinier. On the other hand, C-style syntax isn't used in office backends, and isn't nearly as attractive to beginning programmers... So only the people really dedicated to the craft are likely to try it. But hey... You see a lot of bad VB.NET programmers, you start to think all of them are like that... It's human nature. There are great VB.NET programmers and horrible C# programmers, but we judge things on majorities. Me... I started in IBM Basic in '84 and followed the COBOL-style languages right up to VB.NET... Dabbled in Turbo C back in the day, but didn't like it... Wasn't until a few years ago that I hopped the fence over to C# and stayed there. Now if only C# had "With" blocks... We're getting optional parameters in the next version :)

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Jim Crafton

Please no, just don't go there - the combination of VB and design patterns is enough to make me completely lose my coffee this morning!

¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow

Nemanja Trifunovic

A snob? No, I don't think so. Real programming snobs use Lisp and don't even consider you C#/VB people programmers.

utf8-cpp

PIEBALDconsult

Yes, welcome to the club. I would (jokingly) say that 80% of C# developers are superior to 80% of VB.net developers. But seriously, you need to take each individual as an individual. You don't want to pass on an excellent VB.net dev who could pick up C# quickly for an inferior C# dev. I suggest sticking with C# for new projects if only due to the perceived superiority of the language and its practitioners. You'll attract a better class of candidate. :-D

jbradshaw wrote:

we are in the process of hiring a programmer

Anywhere near Phoenix?

Marc Clifton

jbradshaw wrote:

I usually think more highly of a C# programmer than a VB.Net programmer. Is that justified?

Yes. But then again, a Logo[^] programmer is better. Heck. Someone who doesn't know programming is a better programmer!!!

jbradshaw wrote:

Another reason for asking is that we are in the process of hiring a programmer and have gotten almost nobody with C# but a lot with VB.Net.

Hire a Turtle instead. You won't have to rewrite the code. Marc

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Marc Clifton

Jim Crafton wrote:

C'mon, you're all a bunch of fluff puppies and sissies in my book!

I do declare, I must reflect upon that! ;) Marc

Will work for food. Interacx

I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner

Member 96

I have a similar background and to you though I don't have the BS in CS (which I definitely do not think is any kind of indication of programming "chops" judging from what I've seen coming out of that but that's another discussion entirely). :) I think the majority of c# adopters come from the c++ world in which case the inherently have more experience with deeper level stuff. The vb.net only developers probably come from a) the vb6 world or b) they are new programmers just starting out. Hence on average you are correct. That being said there is so little difference in the .net world between c# and vb.net I wouldn't worry too much about what technology you use, any experience developer worth hiring who hasn't already got their feet wet on the other side could do so quite quickly. Do new projects in c# or vb.net, there's no real difference any more.

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leckey 0

I have not read everyone's answers, but today I'd say no. If you asked me 5 years ago, I would have thought C# better. Maybe it's me but it just seemed like C# back then was more robust and you could do more with it. Now the languages are pretty much the same as are libraries and such. I had a college professor that had us do the same program in 4 languages including non OOP languages. The idea was that if you understand the logic, it's just learning the syntax of each language. Like curly braces and semi-colons in C# versus what I call the "nakedness" of VB. I think you just have to look at overall experience, and what projects they actually worked on. Maybe they are excellent C# programmers but the company had a standard of VB--something else to consider.

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