Stop the madness Steve Jobs
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LunaticFringe wrote:
Call the MS partner support phone line and ask them if 3rd party native C++ apps will be permitted on the Phone7 platform. I'll wait.
I'm not a MS partner, and I'm not arguing for MS here, I just think you interpreted it waaaayyyyy tooooo much. Have you done it, and did they tell you C++ apps would not be permitted on the Phone7 platform? Do you have any more evidence then a real stretch interpretation of Petzold's statement that they plan on keeping other apps from running? You are actively claiming they are adding a restriction, if you have no more evidence than this statement, you have no evidence. Ff you don't have evidence, you are flying in CSS's air space, and are about to start an international incident. [edit]Unless, of course, he has given you permission. :rolleyes: [/edit]
Opacity, the new Transparency.
here is a quote from the Windows Mobile 7 OS site:
"Windows Phone Application Platform supports the two predominant client application styles: markup-based, event-driven applications created with Silverlight and loop-based programs, such as games, created with XNA Game Studio. All development is done in managed code, in a protected sandbox allowing for rapid development of safe and secure applications. Applications written for Silverlight or XNA Framework today will run on Windows Phone OS 7.0 CTP with only a minor number of adjustments, such as for screen size or for device specific sensors."
That pretty much says C# or VB.Net or C++/CLI. Or whatever .net laguage supports the .Net Compact Framework.
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- Petzold's statement is not nuanced. He says all programs for the Phone7 platform are written in managed code. Period. You are free to visit the Windows Mobile developer portal page yourself and read further. Any reasonable person would interpret his statement as he clearly intended it. Parse it to your heart's content and look for meaning that isn't there if you like. 2) Here's the link to the Phone 7 developer portal - http://developer.windowsphone.com/windows-phone-7-series/[^]. There is a wealth of information, developer tools and other stuff available at the developer portal. Feel free to download and install the tools, read the documentation and avail yourself of all the other information they have there. And then come back with something that actually disputes the statement in the Petzold e-book. For instance, describe the process of developing a native C++ app with the only developer tool available. :rolleyes: And I'm not going to waste any more time on this. As I say, you are free to explore the Phone 7 developer portal, documentation and tools to your heart's content. [edit] By the way, the title of Petzold's book is 'Programming Windows Phone 7 Series'. The quote is from a section entitled 'Getting Started - Phone Hardware and Your Software'. It's a discussion of developing apps for the platform. One would think the context would make the meaning clear enough. And so enough of your bullshit. Come up with a native C++ app for the Phone7 platform. Show me a developer tool. Show me a document that says it's supported. Do something to actually back up your crap. [/edit]
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Monday, April 12, 2010 4:05 PM
My crap was saying you were overreaching on saying "are" is "do it or die". You have supporting docs, which is what I asked for, but they do not go all the way to shooting c++ in the back of the head. Unless they have an IL chip, they are programming it with something native. They are not telling you what it is, but they are not saying you are breaking the Terms of Use if you find it and use it, or if you write your own. Since your only UI possibilities are XNA or silverlight, you would be hard pressed to use native c++ with them, even on a desktop, which supports your call that c++ is dying, at least for UI stuff. The sandbox is another case that supports your call. If they are limiting visibility within it to .NET calls, it sounds like native c++ won't be supported, there. OK, I will go along with that. For non-system functions, they have locked x86 assembly right out of the equation, so you would have to write your own managed c++_ compiler. See? That's c++ work, there! And they have locked win32 right out of the equation, unless you want to write a win32 emulation lib in .NET. But if you do, and compile your c++ code to IL that looks like it was generated from a c# program by VS, they have made no indication that they care. That is where I differentiate it from Apple. Apple doesn't care what it looks like, if it came from the wrong place, you breach your terms of use, and if you do that, they can brick your phone. MS could care less how many layers you've got, as long as you use their API. So, you are right, native x86 developers of all types and win32 developers of all types are screwed to the wall. So are WinForm developers, for that matter. Unless you do system level development, and then, most likely, you have to do it in-house for MS.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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That does not address the issue of whether or not the OS allows the execution of 3rd party native C++ apps. That is the question. And the answer seems to be that no, it will NOT allow 3rd party native C++ apps to run. Right?
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
look dude, it says managed apps, it doesn't say what language they are written in!! You can write managed apps in a variety of languages or IL directly if you so care. to quote from the WinMo7 site: "Windows Phone Application Platform supports the two predominant client application styles: markup-based, event-driven applications created with Silverlight and loop-based programs, such as games, created with XNA Game Studio. All development is done in managed code, in a protected sandbox allowing for rapid development of safe and secure applications. Applications written for Silverlight or XNA Framework today will run on Windows Phone OS 7.0 CTP with only a minor number of adjustments, such as for screen size or for device specific sensors." This says NOTHING about what language is used. It says MANAGED CODE!
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That does not address the issue of whether or not the OS allows the execution of 3rd party native C++ apps. That is the question. And the answer seems to be that no, it will NOT allow 3rd party native C++ apps to run. Right?
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
what's "native?" If it's an INTEL CPU, it's the native code of that CPU. If it's a winmo7 phone, its managed code. So, the native environment on a WinMo7 phone is the MANAGED IL CODE. As long as said C++ app compiles to IL, then it will run on the phone. GET IT?
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what's "native?" If it's an INTEL CPU, it's the native code of that CPU. If it's a winmo7 phone, its managed code. So, the native environment on a WinMo7 phone is the MANAGED IL CODE. As long as said C++ app compiles to IL, then it will run on the phone. GET IT?
ummm not quite. Native code refers to waht the CPU executes, on a winmo phone that's ARM machine language. On 6.5 and prior you could compile to it directly via embedded C++; until someone does a jailbreak type hack winmo 7.0 doesn't have any way to run user apps written using it as opposed to MSIL.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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here is a quote from the Windows Mobile 7 OS site:
"Windows Phone Application Platform supports the two predominant client application styles: markup-based, event-driven applications created with Silverlight and loop-based programs, such as games, created with XNA Game Studio. All development is done in managed code, in a protected sandbox allowing for rapid development of safe and secure applications. Applications written for Silverlight or XNA Framework today will run on Windows Phone OS 7.0 CTP with only a minor number of adjustments, such as for screen size or for device specific sensors."
That pretty much says C# or VB.Net or C++/CLI. Or whatever .net laguage supports the .Net Compact Framework.
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Don't waste your breath. He doesn't want to be confused with the facts. Hadn't read the last post above when I wrote this.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Monday, April 12, 2010 8:18 PM
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what's "native?" If it's an INTEL CPU, it's the native code of that CPU. If it's a winmo7 phone, its managed code. So, the native environment on a WinMo7 phone is the MANAGED IL CODE. As long as said C++ app compiles to IL, then it will run on the phone. GET IT?
Dan and LunaticFringe seem to be right. wp7 runs on an ARM processor, ARM assembler is native code. It looks like the only people who can write that for wp7 live at MS. Or one of the cell phone companies. Without some hacking. :rolleyes:
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Dan and LunaticFringe seem to be right. wp7 runs on an ARM processor, ARM assembler is native code. It looks like the only people who can write that for wp7 live at MS. Or one of the cell phone companies. Without some hacking. :rolleyes:
Opacity, the new Transparency.
yes, all true. but that isn't what was being argued. arguably, i can run a "native" c++ program as long as it compiles to IL.
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yes, all true. but that isn't what was being argued. arguably, i can run a "native" c++ program as long as it compiles to IL.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
i can run a "native" c++ program as long as it compiles to IL.
Well, I can jump to the "moon", as long as it's the ceiling of my bedroom. IL is not native code.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
but that isn't what was being argued
Which argument? LunaticFringe and I were having two arguments at the same time. That is, we were arguing each about a different thing from the other. There were at least 2 other arguments, as well. LF says no support for native c++ in WP7. I don't see how IL in a sandbox can be called native.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
i can run a "native" c++ program as long as it compiles to IL.
Well, I can jump to the "moon", as long as it's the ceiling of my bedroom. IL is not native code.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
but that isn't what was being argued
Which argument? LunaticFringe and I were having two arguments at the same time. That is, we were arguing each about a different thing from the other. There were at least 2 other arguments, as well. LF says no support for native c++ in WP7. I don't see how IL in a sandbox can be called native.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
no support for native c++ in WP7
depends on what you mean by "native".
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RichardM1 wrote:
no support for native c++ in WP7
depends on what you mean by "native".
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It's OK, I generate a lot of "Too Long, Not Read" hits on my posts. :) [edit]Hell, even when I surrender, I try and talk people to death. :laugh: [/edit]
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Man, I gotta tell ya, I can't believe all the trouble that quote/statement started! Amazing... I thought it was pretty common knowledge. The managed code thing, I mean. :-D
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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I'm sorry... I have to say it... Madness? THIS... IS...APPLE!
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)After this, I'll have to start using a new mantra: I will not imagine Steve Jobs dressed like a spartan, I will not imagine Steve Jobs dressed like a spartan...
[]'s Harkos --- "Money isn't our god, integrity will free our soul." Cut Throat - Sepultura
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Well, there goes the DragonFire SDK[^]... X| Flynn
Technically no. According to the terms, iPhone apps must be written in C, C++ or Objective C. Since DragonFire is C/C++, it should be allowed.
[]'s Harkos --- "Money isn't our god, integrity will free our soul." Cut Throat - Sepultura
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Recalling our discussion here about developing for Apple devices I just came across this: http://stopthemadnessstevejobs.com/wordpress/[^]
Yesterday they said today was tomorrow but today they know better. - Poul Anderson
Maybe Adobe: Apps for iPhone[^] is what they are trying to combat?
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Maybe Adobe: Apps for iPhone[^] is what they are trying to combat?
Yes, I think this is exactly what they are trying to stop. I think Apple has used the success of the iPhone to get more people interested in the Mac computer. If they allowed Flash or other dev environments to be used, developers would not be required to buy a Mac to develop for it.