Open Lwetter to Microsoft
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Huh, so if I create a business where I am the only employee, I can essentially get it for free (aside from fees to maintain the business)? That's neat.
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hows that anger management class working out John ? ;) Bryce p.s. they won't listen, dollars to donuts they wont even reply to your post. If they really were interested in user's feedback they'd be here on CP (the world's dominant MS development website) talking to us.
MCAD --- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids books :The Snot Goblin, and Book 2 - the Snotgoblin and Fluff
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When someone claims that Microsoft doesn't have an identifiable sense of humor, I can confidently point the the pricing structure for VS2010, and ask them if they've been living under a rock. What in the world is going through your minds? The only thing I can come up with myself is that Microsoft is trying to recoup the costs for other failed software ventures (Vista) or not-so-popular packages (MSDN). Minimum buy-in is $800 - for a freakin' compiler. Let's not even bother bringing Express into the discussion, because it's so crippled as to be useless by serious programmers like me (and there are a lot more of us than your bean counters seem to be aware of) that want decent tools at a reasonable cost. No Standard version? I bet the guy that came up with the UI in WPF idea is responsible for that decision, too. Here's a hint for you idiots. There are people writing Windows apps than for any other platform. You essentially have the market sewn up (I won't bother pointing out the problem I have with that). In these harsh (and not improving) economic times, why are you making it IMPOSSIBLE for joe-blow-average to afford your development tools? You've completely ruined MSDN. You've made it impossible to perform offline installs, thinking developers need to be hand-held through the download/install process, and now you want us to pay THOUSANDS of dollars for bloated, bug-ridden crapware that you call development tools. Well, you can count me out. I've made it a practice to not pirate software, but you've forced me to reconsider the veracity of that moral high ground. Finally, thank you, Microsoft, for ruining my last hobby. Assholes...
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
Microsoft's pricing is not much different than other industry's. I have more than $75,000 in software in my 6 employee business and every dollar of that makes me money on a daily basis. $800 represents 12 or so hours of time. That's pretty cheap if you asked me. Sure it would be great if it was cheaper, but until there's an alternative that let's me work as quickly as it does for banging out C#, C++, and ASP.Net, all nicely integrated with the 3rd party tools and libraries I use, I'll keep paying because it still makes me money. Cheers, Drew.
modified on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 2:13 AM
I think the main problem is the removal of the Standard Edition for people who do serious development at home and aren't running their own business. Standard Edition sat squarely between the free Express (not powerful enough unless just mucking around) and Professional Edition (powerful enough, but more features for team-working which are less useful for a sole developer) which costs much more than the Standard. c.£600 is cheap for a business, but I wanted to install this on a rig at home, but it will cost far too much for me now. But put this into context of me at home, Microsoft has just doubled the cost. The lack of a Standard Edition is really annoying, as it now means I'm forced to find another IDE :~ or use the near-useless Express Edition.
Dalek Dave: There are many words that some find offensive, Homosexuality, Alcoholism, Religion, Visual Basic, Manchester United, Butter. Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.
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I tried it recently when I was looking at the feasability of writing some Blackberry applications for our company for staff use. I did persevere for an hour or two but the experience was very painful (Nursey, nursey - is it time for my medicine?). MS VSxxxx may suck, but it sucks less than any other IDE I've used.
Dave
If this helped, please vote & accept answer!
Binging is like googling, it just feels dirtier. (Pete O'Hanlon)
BTW, in software, hope and pray is not a viable strategy. (Luc Pattyn) -
I tried it recently when I was looking at the feasability of writing some Blackberry applications for our company for staff use. I did persevere for an hour or two but the experience was very painful (Nursey, nursey - is it time for my medicine?). MS VSxxxx may suck, but it sucks less than any other IDE I've used.
Dave
If this helped, please vote & accept answer!
Binging is like googling, it just feels dirtier. (Pete O'Hanlon)
BTW, in software, hope and pray is not a viable strategy. (Luc Pattyn)VS is the gold standard in IDEs. There is not an IDE to even compare with its poop and saying that is incredibly shaming to the industry. Eclipse is, at best, as worthless as a knife made of putty. Netbeans is not that much better, albeit it is and now that Oracle has bought SUN and for starters has completely destroyed the licensing for OpenSolaris, one can only wonder what will happen to NetBeans.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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Huh, so if I create a business where I am the only employee, I can essentially get it for free (aside from fees to maintain the business)? That's neat.
The catch is that after 3 years, when you lose start-up status, you either pay for the Full MSDN subscription, or you pay $100 and leave the program and never to come back again unless you pay the full subscription. I suppose you could "kill" your company and come back again as another startup.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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When someone claims that Microsoft doesn't have an identifiable sense of humor, I can confidently point the the pricing structure for VS2010, and ask them if they've been living under a rock. What in the world is going through your minds? The only thing I can come up with myself is that Microsoft is trying to recoup the costs for other failed software ventures (Vista) or not-so-popular packages (MSDN). Minimum buy-in is $800 - for a freakin' compiler. Let's not even bother bringing Express into the discussion, because it's so crippled as to be useless by serious programmers like me (and there are a lot more of us than your bean counters seem to be aware of) that want decent tools at a reasonable cost. No Standard version? I bet the guy that came up with the UI in WPF idea is responsible for that decision, too. Here's a hint for you idiots. There are people writing Windows apps than for any other platform. You essentially have the market sewn up (I won't bother pointing out the problem I have with that). In these harsh (and not improving) economic times, why are you making it IMPOSSIBLE for joe-blow-average to afford your development tools? You've completely ruined MSDN. You've made it impossible to perform offline installs, thinking developers need to be hand-held through the download/install process, and now you want us to pay THOUSANDS of dollars for bloated, bug-ridden crapware that you call development tools. Well, you can count me out. I've made it a practice to not pirate software, but you've forced me to reconsider the veracity of that moral high ground. Finally, thank you, Microsoft, for ruining my last hobby. Assholes...
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
So if I buy professional, I get premium (including the MSDN upgrade)? Where is this deal stated?
The program was to have ended yesterday with the realse but it was mentioned during the keynote that it would be extended to the end of the month. You'd have to contact your reseller. If they question it, well the keynote was recorded, you can always play it. :)
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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With all due respect, but the NetBeans is the crappies IDE I’ve ever worked with. Try IntelliJ IDEA instead.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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When someone claims that Microsoft doesn't have an identifiable sense of humor, I can confidently point the the pricing structure for VS2010, and ask them if they've been living under a rock. What in the world is going through your minds? The only thing I can come up with myself is that Microsoft is trying to recoup the costs for other failed software ventures (Vista) or not-so-popular packages (MSDN). Minimum buy-in is $800 - for a freakin' compiler. Let's not even bother bringing Express into the discussion, because it's so crippled as to be useless by serious programmers like me (and there are a lot more of us than your bean counters seem to be aware of) that want decent tools at a reasonable cost. No Standard version? I bet the guy that came up with the UI in WPF idea is responsible for that decision, too. Here's a hint for you idiots. There are people writing Windows apps than for any other platform. You essentially have the market sewn up (I won't bother pointing out the problem I have with that). In these harsh (and not improving) economic times, why are you making it IMPOSSIBLE for joe-blow-average to afford your development tools? You've completely ruined MSDN. You've made it impossible to perform offline installs, thinking developers need to be hand-held through the download/install process, and now you want us to pay THOUSANDS of dollars for bloated, bug-ridden crapware that you call development tools. Well, you can count me out. I've made it a practice to not pirate software, but you've forced me to reconsider the veracity of that moral high ground. Finally, thank you, Microsoft, for ruining my last hobby. Assholes...
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
The catch is that after 3 years, when you lose start-up status, you either pay for the Full MSDN subscription, or you pay $100 and leave the program and never to come back again unless you pay the full subscription. I suppose you could "kill" your company and come back again as another startup.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I suppose you could "kill" your company and come back again as another startup.
well, duh
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I'm not a "startup". If anything, I'm an upstart. I'm just a guy that thinks MS's dev tools are priced way too frakking high.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
VS is the gold standard in IDEs. There is not an IDE to even compare with its poop and saying that is incredibly shaming to the industry. Eclipse is, at best, as worthless as a knife made of putty. Netbeans is not that much better, albeit it is and now that Oracle has bought SUN and for starters has completely destroyed the licensing for OpenSolaris, one can only wonder what will happen to NetBeans.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
In my life as a programmer on different OSes and IDEs, I have to disagree with that statement. In addition to VS, I have used Eclipse for Java, Netbeans for Java, XCode and IntelliJ Idea. I have always found that there are features in other IDEs which VS misses and vice-versa. Most programmers, when they switch IDEs, hate the switched IDE mainly because of the learning curve involved. At least, in my case once I started using the IDEs for complex projects, I can find that there is not much difference overall. The place where VS is extremely good is for starting toy and prototype applications quickly. But for most complex applications it does not yield a overall benefit. The refactoring capability in IntelliJ Idea, Eclipse and Netbeans is way better than that in VS without any add-ins.
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In my life as a programmer on different OSes and IDEs, I have to disagree with that statement. In addition to VS, I have used Eclipse for Java, Netbeans for Java, XCode and IntelliJ Idea. I have always found that there are features in other IDEs which VS misses and vice-versa. Most programmers, when they switch IDEs, hate the switched IDE mainly because of the learning curve involved. At least, in my case once I started using the IDEs for complex projects, I can find that there is not much difference overall. The place where VS is extremely good is for starting toy and prototype applications quickly. But for most complex applications it does not yield a overall benefit. The refactoring capability in IntelliJ Idea, Eclipse and Netbeans is way better than that in VS without any add-ins.
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In my life as a programmer on different OSes and IDEs, I have to disagree with that statement. In addition to VS, I have used Eclipse for Java, Netbeans for Java, XCode and IntelliJ Idea. I have always found that there are features in other IDEs which VS misses and vice-versa. Most programmers, when they switch IDEs, hate the switched IDE mainly because of the learning curve involved. At least, in my case once I started using the IDEs for complex projects, I can find that there is not much difference overall. The place where VS is extremely good is for starting toy and prototype applications quickly. But for most complex applications it does not yield a overall benefit. The refactoring capability in IntelliJ Idea, Eclipse and Netbeans is way better than that in VS without any add-ins.
For Java, I've used eclipse and netbeans extensively, and I so prefer the look and feel of eclipse over netbeans, however, I've found netbeans to be infinitely better. I've heard that IntelliJ Idea is really good but I haven't had the chance to try it, but judging by JetBrains' resharper product, I'm betting its REALLY good.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
I have always found that there are features in other IDEs which VS misses and vice-versa.
Certainly, but how does that stop one IDE from generally being better than the others? VS, is certainly a RAD IDE and one that can help get code churned out really quickly for a prototype, and I find that that also adds to its value and also helps out in continuously churning out code.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
At least, in my case once I started using the IDEs for complex projects, I can find that there is not much difference overall.
On a large enough average, there is not much of a difference between a monkey and a human either Rama. You're right, Eclipse and Netbeans et al all have something in their favor, but VS, IMHO, remains the gold standard to be attained. And I'm considering this with VS being used along a spectrum of project types. I've used it for small, toy stuff and to a project that I still maintain that is a combination of 27 projects of several languages. I find that one of the biggest downfalls of Eclipse and Netbeans is their sluggishness. To you it might not be such a big issue, but it is to me. It is beyond annoying to wait for the IDE that is supposed to help you work faster.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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For Java, I've used eclipse and netbeans extensively, and I so prefer the look and feel of eclipse over netbeans, however, I've found netbeans to be infinitely better. I've heard that IntelliJ Idea is really good but I haven't had the chance to try it, but judging by JetBrains' resharper product, I'm betting its REALLY good.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
I have always found that there are features in other IDEs which VS misses and vice-versa.
Certainly, but how does that stop one IDE from generally being better than the others? VS, is certainly a RAD IDE and one that can help get code churned out really quickly for a prototype, and I find that that also adds to its value and also helps out in continuously churning out code.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
At least, in my case once I started using the IDEs for complex projects, I can find that there is not much difference overall.
On a large enough average, there is not much of a difference between a monkey and a human either Rama. You're right, Eclipse and Netbeans et al all have something in their favor, but VS, IMHO, remains the gold standard to be attained. And I'm considering this with VS being used along a spectrum of project types. I've used it for small, toy stuff and to a project that I still maintain that is a combination of 27 projects of several languages. I find that one of the biggest downfalls of Eclipse and Netbeans is their sluggishness. To you it might not be such a big issue, but it is to me. It is beyond annoying to wait for the IDE that is supposed to help you work faster.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Eclipse and Netbeans is their sluggishnes
Long time back they were :) Since VS2005 days and Eclipse 3 days I do not see much difference for comparable projects. I am talking about Java dev in Eclipse and C# dev in VS2008. Eclipse works almost as fast as VS for me. In fact, I have found that Intellisense in Eclipse on an average is faster that VS and Eclipse looks at all packages (namespaces) which is again a plus. Anyway, that's my experience. I don't think any modern IDE (Eclipse, IntelliJ, VS and XCode) is way better than any other IDE. I am speaking only because I have used all IDEs to maintain and develop complex projects beyond samples.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Eclipse and Netbeans is their sluggishnes
Long time back they were :) Since VS2005 days and Eclipse 3 days I do not see much difference for comparable projects. I am talking about Java dev in Eclipse and C# dev in VS2008. Eclipse works almost as fast as VS for me. In fact, I have found that Intellisense in Eclipse on an average is faster that VS and Eclipse looks at all packages (namespaces) which is again a plus. Anyway, that's my experience. I don't think any modern IDE (Eclipse, IntelliJ, VS and XCode) is way better than any other IDE. I am speaking only because I have used all IDEs to maintain and develop complex projects beyond samples.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Long time back they were
They're certainly faster on Linux/FreeBSD than VS can hope to be.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Eclipse works almost as fast as VS for me. In fact, I have found that Intellisense in Eclipse on an average is faster that VS and Eclipse looks at all packages (namespaces) which is again a plus.
I'll need to give them another whirl in that case.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Anyway, that's my experience. I don't think any modern IDE (Eclipse, IntelliJ, VS and XCode) is way better than any other IDE. I am speaking only because I have used all IDEs to maintain and develop complex projects beyond samples.
Ditto here Rama, albeit I certainly don't have as extensive an experience as you do. Your knowledge in something is certainly, awe inspiring :)
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Long time back they were
They're certainly faster on Linux/FreeBSD than VS can hope to be.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Eclipse works almost as fast as VS for me. In fact, I have found that Intellisense in Eclipse on an average is faster that VS and Eclipse looks at all packages (namespaces) which is again a plus.
I'll need to give them another whirl in that case.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Anyway, that's my experience. I don't think any modern IDE (Eclipse, IntelliJ, VS and XCode) is way better than any other IDE. I am speaking only because I have used all IDEs to maintain and develop complex projects beyond samples.
Ditto here Rama, albeit I certainly don't have as extensive an experience as you do. Your knowledge in something is certainly, awe inspiring :)
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
On an off topic, I sent you an invite to join a Google Group but seems that you ignored it. Did you see it? Some of your old friends and people you miss are there.
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On an off topic, I sent you an invite to join a Google Group but seems that you ignored it. Did you see it? Some of your old friends and people you miss are there.
I did. I accepted it too, but it gave me this:
You cannot view the group's content or participate in the group because you are not currently a member. Membership is invite only.
You must be a member of this group to read its archive.
This group is invite only, so you may not apply for membership. However, you may contact the owner.
:confused: Should have emailed you about that. Sorry.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?