My Apple Store Experience
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c2423 wrote:
as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?
Not in person, but the media (especially the BBC) does it all the frigging time and has done for years. Same now with the iPhone and to a lesser extent blackberries. I've always been a Win CE / Windows Mobile fan myself, back in 2002 with the HTC Canary I had a device that had MP3 playback, video playback, games, email, a web browser and tons of other things yet I've never really seen a mention of these devices in the media.
Dave Parker wrote:
back in 2002 with the HTC Canary
Ah, back in the day. It even had the best quality camera I've ever seen with a phone, not in terms of resolution but actual picture quality. The downside was that you had to plug it in, but still.
My current favourite word is: Smooth!
-SK Genius
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So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
c2423 wrote:
have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?
Yes. All the time. It's generally easier to say you have an iPod than explain that you have a Creative Zen player. I'm not sure comparing iPod to Hoover is a great selling point. I don't think many people believe Hoovers are vastly superior to other vacuum cleaners.
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So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
c2423 wrote:
have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?
Not much. Certainly not in the way "Walkman" was used for any portable cassette player, and certainly not like "Hoover" is used for... well, Hoovers.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
Here is my experience of MP3 players I own... iPod: - Very Nice built quality - Very Nice feature set - OK Sound Quality - Costly Zune - Very Nice built quality - Very Nice feature set - BEST Sound Quality - Costly Creative Zen - Poor Built Quality - Very Nice Feature set - Nice Sound Quality - Cheaper iRiver - Nice Built Quality - Very Nice Feature Set - OK Sound Quality - Costly Sansa - Poor Built Quality - Nice feature set - OK Sound Quality - Cheaper So If you want nice sound quality with awesome music subscription service just go for Zune + Zune Premium Headset + Zune Marketplace. iPods are just for looking cool, the new iPods have very bad sound quality, you can't listen to them in higher volume (it will distort) the "signal to noise ratio" is 74 very bad compare to Creative Zen 92 and Zune 90. Zune comes with Wolfam chip (best DAC right now).
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So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
c2423 wrote:
Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is?
Yes. The Apple stores exist to do one thing, sell Apple products and promote Apple's ditzy corporate culture. Expecting anything else is just stupid. I doubt any of the floor employees are paid particularly well, nor are they technically trained, or motivated (why should they be, they are just expected to move Apple products and/or answer simplistic questions about they products).
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
Companies should embrace the "know thine enemy" even if it's just to point out their flaws. They might have made a sale by listing the Zen's shortcomings (if any) vs the iPods strengths (if any).
I need an app that will automatically deliver a new BBBBBBBBaBB (beautiful blonde bimbo brandishing bountiful bobbing bare breasts and bodacious butt) every day. John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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Dave Parker wrote:
back in 2002 with the HTC Canary
Ah, back in the day. It even had the best quality camera I've ever seen with a phone, not in terms of resolution but actual picture quality. The downside was that you had to plug it in, but still.
My current favourite word is: Smooth!
-SK Genius
I never really used the camera tbh due to the whole plug-in thing, though the one on my SPV E650 (think that's a HTC Vox) is pretty good, better than any other digital one I've seen in lower lighting conditions without a flash.
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So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
When you walked in, did you have your "I (heart) Christian Graus" button on?
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
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I bought a sansa for similar reasons. Plus I would hate to have to use iTunes to copy my music onto the device. What's wrong with explorer / dolphin / nautilus. I would expect that most sales people should understand the competition at least as far as the patter required to make you buy their product.
modified on Monday, April 26, 2010 10:07 AM
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c2423 wrote:
have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?
Not much. Certainly not in the way "Walkman" was used for any portable cassette player, and certainly not like "Hoover" is used for... well, Hoovers.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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When you walked in, did you have your "I (heart) Christian Graus" button on?
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
Here is my experience of MP3 players I own... iPod: - Very Nice built quality - Very Nice feature set - OK Sound Quality - Costly Zune - Very Nice built quality - Very Nice feature set - BEST Sound Quality - Costly Creative Zen - Poor Built Quality - Very Nice Feature set - Nice Sound Quality - Cheaper iRiver - Nice Built Quality - Very Nice Feature Set - OK Sound Quality - Costly Sansa - Poor Built Quality - Nice feature set - OK Sound Quality - Cheaper So If you want nice sound quality with awesome music subscription service just go for Zune + Zune Premium Headset + Zune Marketplace. iPods are just for looking cool, the new iPods have very bad sound quality, you can't listen to them in higher volume (it will distort) the "signal to noise ratio" is 74 very bad compare to Creative Zen 92 and Zune 90. Zune comes with Wolfam chip (best DAC right now).
Rutvik Dave wrote:
iPods are just for looking cool, the new iPods have very bad sound quality, you can't listen to them in higher volume (it will distort) the "signal to noise ratio" is 74 very bad compare to Creative Zen 92 and Zune 90.
Meh, in real world tests they all land somewhere in the mid 80's for SNR. Not sure where you found a 74 for the iPod.
He said, "Boy I'm just old and lonely, But thank you for your concern, Here's wishing you a Happy New Year." I wished him one back in return.
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Russell Jones wrote:
Plus I would hate to have to use iTunes to copy my music onto the device. What's wrong with explorer / dolphin / nautilus.
Hear hear!! Finally, someone who agrees with me! :thumbsup:
I use the XPlay 3 explorer extentions to copy music from my windows 7 music library to my iPod, either through syncing in windows media player, or directly through windows explorer. Where there is a will, there is a way. iTunes will never be installed on my computer!
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So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
when you go into a Chiquita store, you don't ask for bananas. It is not done. :)
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [Why QA sucks] [My Articles]
Prolific encyclopedia fixture proof-reader browser patron addict?
We all depend on the beast below.
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So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
c2423 wrote:
The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better"
Actually we called Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush and Obama, Obama. Not sure why we would call all the presidents Hoover ...
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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c2423 wrote:
The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better"
Actually we called Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush and Obama, Obama. Not sure why we would call all the presidents Hoover ...
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I think Hoover refers to a vacuum cleaner brand.
Fight Big Government:
http://obamacareclassaction.com/
http://obamacaretruth.org/ -
I think Hoover refers to a vacuum cleaner brand.
Fight Big Government:
http://obamacareclassaction.com/
http://obamacaretruth.org/I know, but I've never heard a vacuum cleaner called a Hoover -- not even if it was a Hoover. I've always heard them called "vacuum cleaner." Maybe I just don't discuss vacuum cleaners enough?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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So I went into the Apple Store the other day (I know, I know) looking to buy an MP3 Player. After half an hour of marvelling at the over priced gadgets on display, a member of staff finally plucked up the courage to ask me if I needed any help. My question was simple: why should I buy an iPod over say, an equivalent Creative Zen MP3 Player? "What's a Creative Zen player?" she asked, before spending the next 5 telling me what an "iPod" is and how it works with a thing called "iTunes". I let her talk, not telling her that I actually own a first generation iPod, so used one before she was even old enough to work in the Apple store, and before she had likely even heard of them (when I first told people I had one, literally one person had heard of it, and he spent half an hour telling me about how you could not get one for love nor money) Maybe it's too much to ask that sales people listen to the question and acknowledge that I know what the product is? Regardless, I politely asked if there was a member of staff who knew what a Creative Zen MP3 player was. So she ran off to find someone. The more knowledgeable member of staff came to talk to me, and proceeded to tell me that what the iPod has over other brands was that it was "just like Hoover. Everybody just calls them Hoovers, regardless - thats like what iPods are like. That's why they are better" (as a question for all CP members, have you ever heard people refer to a non iPod MP3 player as an iPod in this fashion?) So I reiterated my original question. "I don't know anything about Zen Players - really its up to you as the customer to know all about them and then ask us about our products. We know all about iPods, but we can't be expected to know about any other type of electronics. What exactly do Zen Players do anyway?" Was it unreasonable of me to expect them to know *what* their competition is? I can accept that they don't have to know everything about the rival devices, but I would at least expect them to understand that they sell MP3 players? So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price :)
c2423 wrote:
So in the end I bought a Hitachi - as much disk space, for a fraction of the price
Now you need to go back to the Apple store and demonstrate it to the salesdroidgenius...if only to make the point that other MP3 players exist...and that they lost a sale to it.
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I know, but I've never heard a vacuum cleaner called a Hoover -- not even if it was a Hoover. I've always heard them called "vacuum cleaner." Maybe I just don't discuss vacuum cleaners enough?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
Maybe I just don't discuss vacuum cleaners enough?
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [Why QA sucks] [My Articles]
Prolific encyclopedia fixture proof-reader browser patron addict?
We all depend on the beast below.
