Women in IT [modified]
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Can't speak to the salary issue, as I've never been on the management side, but dunno about the rest... I haven't worked with many female techies... I can recall two programmers (One talented, one waste of oxygen), and I think two or three in QA (Not sure of their skill level). Back in college (University, for you non-USians), I don't remember seeing more than three or four women in all of my Computer Science classes combined... At least when I went to college (Right around 2000), very few women were going to school to learn how to program, and the few I knew really weren't very skilled. Obviously this isn't definitive proof of anything, as quite a lot of good developers are self-educated. Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think... Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so it would be good to get some new perspectives on things. While it's good to be on the "same wavelength" as your team members, it also usually means you're all attacking the problem from the same side, and possibly missing a much better solution.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think... Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so it would be good to get some new perspectives on things. While it's good to be on the "same wavelength" as your team members, it also usually means you're all attacking the problem from the same side, and possibly missing a much better solution.
Definitely agreed. This could also be applied to a lot of other areas, including the reverse in more female-dominated areas. Unfortunately, it seems (from my limited experience) that the minority gender often has a harder time influencing things because it goes against the dominant way of thinking.
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Can't speak to the salary issue, as I've never been on the management side, but dunno about the rest... I haven't worked with many female techies... I can recall two programmers (One talented, one waste of oxygen), and I think two or three in QA (Not sure of their skill level). Back in college (University, for you non-USians), I don't remember seeing more than three or four women in all of my Computer Science classes combined... At least when I went to college (Right around 2000), very few women were going to school to learn how to program, and the few I knew really weren't very skilled. Obviously this isn't definitive proof of anything, as quite a lot of good developers are self-educated. Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think... Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so it would be good to get some new perspectives on things. While it's good to be on the "same wavelength" as your team members, it also usually means you're all attacking the problem from the same side, and possibly missing a much better solution.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think
I think Chris has hired most of them.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think... Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so it would be good to get some new perspectives on things. While it's good to be on the "same wavelength" as your team members, it also usually means you're all attacking the problem from the same side, and possibly missing a much better solution.
Definitely agreed. This could also be applied to a lot of other areas, including the reverse in more female-dominated areas. Unfortunately, it seems (from my limited experience) that the minority gender often has a harder time influencing things because it goes against the dominant way of thinking.
J. Dunlap wrote:
the minority gender often has a harder time influencing things
That's funny, I'm a guy,and I've never seen that. :rolleyes: There are more women than men in the US. YYMV[^]if dating, check here[^] :-D On the other hand, this says China and India are very male heavy, and getting more so[^], since they control 1/3 world population,they skew the over all statistics the other way.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Sadly there is a proportion of the of people who make themselves feel stronger by putting others down, it varies from industry to industry etc. I have seen it by race, gender, snobbery, inverse snobbery etc., even if you didn't go to the right Cambridge college and have the right tutor. Yes, that was the case at one place I went for an interview and I told the agency later I wasn't interested. There was another case where an agency rang up about a vacancy in Cambridge and made sure they told me that the people there "weren't the usual Cambridge type". :doh: By the way, the firm I mentioned where you were looked down on if you weren't one of the 'elite' closed. Mostly because they thought people should be greatful for whatever they did.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
You have hit that nail on the head. I remember reading somewhere that the fastest way to get ahead was to pull other people down. I know I am argumentative on here, but that is part of how I view soapbox, etc. The only thing to argue about at work is technical merit of an idea,and personal attacks shouldn't be anywhere in that.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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You have hit that nail on the head. I remember reading somewhere that the fastest way to get ahead was to pull other people down. I know I am argumentative on here, but that is part of how I view soapbox, etc. The only thing to argue about at work is technical merit of an idea,and personal attacks shouldn't be anywhere in that.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
Captain Fantastic Incident level 4 - there is a wannabe alpha male at work and I manage the video streamers we use for playing back DVB recordings. There was a problem with one of the streamers and he 'knew' that one of the modulator cards was faulty and I 'had to' get the machine out the server room, strip it down etc. etc. and he 'knew' he was right. I power cycled the streamer and everything was fine, the driver for one card had glitched. Second incident in four years running about 70-80 modulators. Guess who was a grumpykins for the rest of that day. :laugh:
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
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Captain Fantastic Incident level 4 - there is a wannabe alpha male at work and I manage the video streamers we use for playing back DVB recordings. There was a problem with one of the streamers and he 'knew' that one of the modulator cards was faulty and I 'had to' get the machine out the server room, strip it down etc. etc. and he 'knew' he was right. I power cycled the streamer and everything was fine, the driver for one card had glitched. Second incident in four years running about 70-80 modulators. Guess who was a grumpykins for the rest of that day. :laugh:
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
Trollslayer wrote:
Guess who was a grumpykins for the rest of that day.
You? Damn... I suck at these guessing games!! :laugh:
I don't have ADHD, I have ADOS... Attention Deficit oooh SHINY!! If you like cars, check out the Booger Mobile blog | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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Captain Fantastic Incident level 4 - there is a wannabe alpha male at work and I manage the video streamers we use for playing back DVB recordings. There was a problem with one of the streamers and he 'knew' that one of the modulator cards was faulty and I 'had to' get the machine out the server room, strip it down etc. etc. and he 'knew' he was right. I power cycled the streamer and everything was fine, the driver for one card had glitched. Second incident in four years running about 70-80 modulators. Guess who was a grumpykins for the rest of that day. :laugh:
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
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Being physically at work for many hours does not equate working for that many hours.
Watched code never compiles.
That is exactly what 'working' means if you work in an office. Productivity is the measure of how much work is being generated while 'at work'. I work from home, so I tally my work hours a little differently. If I sit at the screen staring for no apparent reason, I get up and do something else and I don't count those hours as 'working'. Those in an office environment usually don't have that luxury, so the mental downtime still counts as work.
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J. Dunlap wrote:
the minority gender often has a harder time influencing things
That's funny, I'm a guy,and I've never seen that. :rolleyes: There are more women than men in the US. YYMV[^]if dating, check here[^] :-D On the other hand, this says China and India are very male heavy, and getting more so[^], since they control 1/3 world population,they skew the over all statistics the other way.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
I have. The wife was a teacher and in Australia schools are very female dominated. At the schools my wife has been to, male teachers get denigrated and ignored on a regular basis. I hope its not the case everywhere, but since everyone else is talking in generalisations, I summarise it like this: People suck.
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Being physically at work for many hours does not equate working for that many hours.
Watched code never compiles.
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;) those damn people who think they know everything ... :rolleyes: I wish I had hardware that reliable!
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Can't speak to the salary issue, as I've never been on the management side, but dunno about the rest... I haven't worked with many female techies... I can recall two programmers (One talented, one waste of oxygen), and I think two or three in QA (Not sure of their skill level). Back in college (University, for you non-USians), I don't remember seeing more than three or four women in all of my Computer Science classes combined... At least when I went to college (Right around 2000), very few women were going to school to learn how to program, and the few I knew really weren't very skilled. Obviously this isn't definitive proof of anything, as quite a lot of good developers are self-educated. Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think... Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so it would be good to get some new perspectives on things. While it's good to be on the "same wavelength" as your team members, it also usually means you're all attacking the problem from the same side, and possibly missing a much better solution.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)...Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so... In my experience this does not help with solving problems. It creates them.
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
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Being physically at work less hours doesn't mean, either.
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server.if you want to move the discussion away from numbers and into our own little slices of perception in our minds...consider this... I assume that you are assuming a general disconnect between quality of employee and promotions and believe it is due to a 'social injustice' (that can't be proven). Then, I could say that I think that long work hours, regardless of their value, tend to create the impression of a good employee, leading them to get a promotion--even while they maybe worth -$ to their business.
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I have. The wife was a teacher and in Australia schools are very female dominated. At the schools my wife has been to, male teachers get denigrated and ignored on a regular basis. I hope its not the case everywhere, but since everyone else is talking in generalisations, I summarise it like this: People suck.
"To summarize the summary of the summary, people are a problem." -- Douglas Adams
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Recently I've been reading alot about how women in IT are still being predjudiced against - lower salaries, experience bias from men, fewer in positions of power, the usual stories about how women can't seem to make it in a male-dominated industry. Given my own experience in IT, I'm inclined to think that most of this is rubbish as I've found gender to be mostly irrelevant. I've found that hard work, being good at your job and having the confidence to stand your ground carries far more weight than "being a skirt". Am I alone in this thinking?
modified on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 2:15 PM
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if you want to move the discussion away from numbers and into our own little slices of perception in our minds...consider this... I assume that you are assuming a general disconnect between quality of employee and promotions and believe it is due to a 'social injustice' (that can't be proven). Then, I could say that I think that long work hours, regardless of their value, tend to create the impression of a good employee, leading them to get a promotion--even while they maybe worth -$ to their business.
..and efficiency drops anyway when working late hours. But I won't support without proof the idea that women can finish the smae amount of work in less time because they are women. because that would be sexist, you know.
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server.