A discussion on life (Scientific, not philosophical)
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ROTFL - I've not failed at all. I've pointed out many times what the Bible says, and those who choose to mock me, have refused to remotely consider or investigate my claims. But, Pete is right, I've tried to answer on this thread without getting too close to the soapbox, and my answer is definitely soap box material. Ask me there ( soapbox 2.0, I guess ), and I'll happily answer.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Standards of integrity, honesty, openness, scientific reasoning. That sort of stuff.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Standards of integrity, honesty, openness, scientific reasoning. That sort of stuff.
Uh, so someone who questions another's beliefs has no integrity, honesty, openness or scientific reasoning? :confused:
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Take your pick. I really don't care whether or not your reply is humorous. We've strayed into religion into the Lounge, and that's something that should normally be avoided.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
My original title was for a scientific not philosophial discussion, I bet we talk about Nazi's soon ! :)
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
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Take your pick. I really don't care whether or not your reply is humorous. We've strayed into religion into the Lounge, and that's something that should normally be avoided.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
The problem is, your post highlights a common criticism of secular arguments, i.e. implying that the evidence required for an all-powerful supernatural being is comparably similar to something as mundane as the evidence required for sexual attraction. There - I've taken the humourless approach. ;P
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Christian Graus wrote:
therefore an infinite number of planets does not prove it is likely that there's life on any of them.
With infinite number of planets it's guaranteed that there is a planet with intelligent life which has another Christian Graus, but unlike Earth's CG, alien one is capable of using computers.
oooh, bitchy! :)
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
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Christian Graus wrote:
I've pointed out many times what the Bible says
Not in this thread, or at least I don't see it, and I'll be posting in the soapbox I guess.
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My original title was for a scientific not philosophial discussion, I bet we talk about Nazi's soon ! :)
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Dalek Dave wrote:
Nazi's
We could talk about your Hitleresque misuse of the possessive case.
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My original title was for a scientific not philosophial discussion, I bet we talk about Nazi's soon ! :)
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Well, you don't believe in God, so you're obviously a Nazi. Does that do it ? ( Actually, Hitler thought he was doing God's work, but, that would kill the joke )
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
God doesn't give you the sort of evidence you demand, therefore there is no God.
I'm saying that I need evidence that he exists before I'll believe that he exists. How is this in any way saying that god doesn't exist?
Because you're not saying that, at all. you're saying you want to DEFINE the nature of the evidence you want.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I've pointed out many times what the Bible says
Not in this thread, or at least I don't see it, and I'll be posting in the soapbox I guess.
No, I would always go that far only in the soapbox.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Standards of integrity, honesty, openness, scientific reasoning. That sort of stuff.
Uh, so someone who questions another's beliefs has no integrity, honesty, openness or scientific reasoning? :confused:
This is pointless, as always. My core point is that your attempts to question me are based at least as much as my views on preconceived ideas and beliefs which you refuse to allow to be challenged. It's not a quest for truth, it's a quest to justify your already held views. Wrapping it up in claims of scientific integrity is dishonest, and unscientific.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Because you're not saying that, at all. you're saying you want to DEFINE the nature of the evidence you want.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
you're saying you want to DEFINE the nature of the evidence you want.
When did I say that? You'll have to explicitly point it out to me.
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This is pointless, as always. My core point is that your attempts to question me are based at least as much as my views on preconceived ideas and beliefs which you refuse to allow to be challenged. It's not a quest for truth, it's a quest to justify your already held views. Wrapping it up in claims of scientific integrity is dishonest, and unscientific.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
This is pointless, as always.
I'm just trying to understand what you think 'sceptic' actually means.
Christian Graus wrote:
My core point is that your attempts to question me are based at least as much as my views on preconceived ideas and beliefs which you refuse to allow to be challenged. It's not a quest for truth, it's a quest to justify your already held views.
What a cop-out. When have you ever seriously challenged my views with something tangible?
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During my current module (I am doing an Open University course on life sciences) I am learning about the beginnings of life. It is a contentious issue. Some think it was foam, others mud, some think it was an iron first development and so on... However, given all research and evidence, it becomes apparent that the golden rule is if there is liquid water, there is life. Posit. If life, or evidence of past life, is found on one other body in the solar system, be it Mars, Europa or wherever, it is a sign that life is universal. Do you expect that life will be found elsewhere within our lives, and do you agree that it will be The Greatest Discovery Ever?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
I think that the Universe is filled with living beings other than ourselves. They are (wisely) dodging us, and are smart enough to avoid discovery for at least several more lifetimes. No doubt their equivalent of teenagers find the urge to occasionally buzz the yokels here irresistible, which explains UFO sightings, but they eventually grow up and become responsible beings, just like ours do. Well, most of them.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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As I mentioned before, the argument made me remember about this mail and so I posted it. By the way, I am also a firm believer of Science and don't believe anything illogical. But I do believe that there is some power governing the universe and I call that power "THE GOD".
..Go Green..
Ankurm/ wrote:
a firm believer of Science
You don't actually need to believe in it.
The bearing of a child takes nine months, no matter how many women are assigned.
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I don't expect it will be found, simply because I believe God created life. I don't care about the mechanism He used ( that is to say, I'm not claiming anything on that front especially ), I just think that God is needed for life to exist, therefore an infinite number of planets does not prove it is likely that there's life on any of them.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
So why couldnt god have created life elsewhere in the solar system? After all, he created it at the south pole. It took man a few millenia to find out. Or is it that you think that gods only interest is man? In that case do you hold the view that all other life is there to serve man? If so then how do you tally that view with the statement in the gospels about those who show compassion for gods littlest creatures? You therefore have to accept that god does care about all likfe and that he equally might have created it in any number of places in the universe. Unless you take the view that the earth is gods domainm and that other planets are the domain of other gods. In which case god isnt infinite.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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harold aptroot wrote:
Verifying theories by experiments is the basis of science, believing what some old and poorly translated book is saying is not.
Well, the two are not incompatible. If experiments actually prove that life can spontaneously exist, then I'm willing to listen. I read a lot of popular science, I also read a number of books in recent times that were in support of free for all evolution and spontaneous life. I don't come by my views by ignoring those that oppose them.
harold aptroot wrote:
Also, if we accept the claim that god must exist because there is life, then why isn't there life elsewhere?
Well, that's not my claim. My claim is, there is a God, based on my experience, and therefore I believe He created life. It's kind of backwards to what you said. But, assuming I did make that claim, why would there have to be life everywhere ? The weakest argument proposed by people who claim there can't be a God is 'If there was a God, he'd have done things my way', IMO.
harold aptroot wrote:
How did he leave no direct evidence of his existence?
Well, He does, as it happens. But that's edging pretty close to Soapbox material.
harold aptroot wrote:
So Occam's Razor cuts god out of the universe
Only by a word game, not in any meaningful way. Scott Adams ( of Dilbert fame ) wrote several books, and in one he talked about his belief that picturing something you want to happen, can make it happen. In the next, he talks at length about his response to people who pilloried him for his view, and in particular talks about how Occams Razor is a farce in the sense it is used by people today. I don't agree with him on the visualisation thing, but I agree with him that there's nothing more close minded or bigoted than a sceptic. Funny, the guy who runs the skeptic magazine in the US wrote a number of the books I've read of late, and he seems to be a calm, decent, logical individual. So are most skeptics, but the first book I read was 'why do smart people believe dumb things' or something similar. Yes, creationists got a chapter :-) It's funny to me that in some ways, that is true of the skeptic movement, and it's obsession with misapplication of Occam's Razor. I googled for the chapter online, but could not find it. It appears to be in the book 'the jo
Christian Graus wrote:
My claim is, there is a God, based on my experience
Based on my experience of nearly 40 years of life there is no evidence for God, and I was raised as a Christian and have read most of the Bible. As a rational, thinking being, as a result of this it is illogical and incomprehensible to me to be anything other than an atheist. If your experience tells you there is a God, and mine tells me there isn't, how can we determine who is right?
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Nope. The fluffy one is right. She knows me so well.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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In Pete's context it means drunk.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
Yeah, I know. When I said "used here", I meant in India. Britishers use some quaint words. :)
Cheers, Vikram. (Got my troika of CCCs!)
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Ankurm/ wrote:
a firm believer of Science
You don't actually need to believe in it.
The bearing of a child takes nine months, no matter how many women are assigned.