Gun crime even in Britain [modified]
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Yeah, even though the UK is very restrictive. In France I have seen hunting rifles just hanging above the fireplace in peoles houses, and I believe in Belgium it is very easy to get guns of all sorts. (The son of the Vlams Belang guy who shot the Muslim woman with a shotgun in Antwerp a few years back had apparently just gone in and bought it.)
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
The son of the Vlams Belang guy who shot the Muslim woman with a shotgun in Antwerp a few years back had apparently just gone in and bought it.
Just for that purpose?
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven nils illegitimus carborundum
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Guns are illegal here in the UK. The only people who have them are the police and the army. Of course criminals have them. And farmers, who are allowed. You can apply for a license but that is quite hard to get. I have never handled a real weapon whilst in the UK. What would be the point? The vast majority of people have no need of them, for any reason. The gunman, apparently, had a gun license for many years though I've not seen why he needed them.
LunaticFringe wrote:
if that had been Wyoming, f***er would have had his head blown off within minutes of the alarm having been raised.
Really? Many people who carry guns have never actually had to use them. To draw your weapon and shoot at another person, never having done so before, even if directly threatened, is not most peoples first instinct unless you have been highly trained to do so.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven nils illegitimus carborundum
digital man wrote:
Really? Many people who carry guns have never actually had to use them. To draw your weapon and shoot at another person, never having done so before, even if directly threatened, is not most peoples first instinct unless you have been highly trained to do so.
Let me put it this way. Guns here are tools; as such they are frequently used. People are used to working with them, just as they are used to working with their horses or cattle. Guns aren't something whose use is theoretical; they aren't something that's only used in the sterile environment of a shooting range. To get to my house, I have to drive across several miles of open rangeland. A week or so ago I turned off the paved road and onto the dirt road crossing the range. Just a hundred feet or so off the main road was the rancher's pickup. He was sitting at the wheel with a .22, aiming out the window and nailing gophers. The .22 lives in the gunrack in his pickup. When he needs to use it, it's there, he grabs it and he's a damned good shot. When I saw him I didn't think twice about it; can you imagine the reaction in most places? If this had been California, there would have been people freaking out, nutters protesting to save the gophers... And that's the way it is here. People are comfortable with guns as they are with a hammer or a saw. A lot of people are accustomed to shooting stuff a hell of a lot bigger than gophers, too. It's a different world than a city, where people may own guns, but hardly ever use them, and never, ever use them to shoot at another creature. All those rifles you see in gun racks in pickup trucks in these parts aren't there for show, and they aren't there to try and intimidate people - these aren't rednecks, they're ranchers, and they know how to use their guns.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Friday, June 4, 2010 1:04 PM
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Supposedly the world trade center was destroyed by a few terrorist with box cutters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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No way man. I heard it was like George Bush and the oil companies. All the truths are out there on the interweb!
But the government said it was ragheads with box cutters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Supposedly the world trade center was destroyed by a few terrorist with box cutters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
But as Christian said... People were stupid. That wouldn't work a second time. Before 9/11, the general attitude to an airplane hijacking was to cooperate with the hijackers, because their motivation was always theft, not murder. Now, the stakes are higher, and people aren't going to tolerate it. The next hijacking attempt (Has there even been one since?), people are going to ASSUME the worst, and won't sit by and let something like that happen again. If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Well, to be fair, the US has such a huge rate of crimes like this compared to the rest of the world, that it's another thing where the rest of the world shakes their head sadly and says 'only in America'. They invented it, and they are the touchstone for it. That doesn't mean there are not lunatics in other parts of the world, of course.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, to be fair, the US has such a huge rate of crimes like this compared to the rest of the world,
There were a few similar cases in Germany during the last several years. Given the almost four times deferens in the population with US I’m not sure who will be the winner in this competition.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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But as Christian said... People were stupid. That wouldn't work a second time. Before 9/11, the general attitude to an airplane hijacking was to cooperate with the hijackers, because their motivation was always theft, not murder. Now, the stakes are higher, and people aren't going to tolerate it. The next hijacking attempt (Has there even been one since?), people are going to ASSUME the worst, and won't sit by and let something like that happen again. If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels):thumbsup:
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Funny, some guys got quite far with box cutters... It isn't about the weapon, it is about the circumstances allowing the weapon to be used for greatest effect.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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But as Christian said... People were stupid. That wouldn't work a second time. Before 9/11, the general attitude to an airplane hijacking was to cooperate with the hijackers, because their motivation was always theft, not murder. Now, the stakes are higher, and people aren't going to tolerate it. The next hijacking attempt (Has there even been one since?), people are going to ASSUME the worst, and won't sit by and let something like that happen again. If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
A few years ago on a flight from Europe to US, when some radical Jewish nut two seats from me half-undressed himself and start wrapping long leather strap around his arms, I was ready to jump in his direction.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
A few years ago on a flight from Europe to US, when some radical Jewish nut two seats from me half-undressed himself and start wrapping long leather strap around his arms, I was ready to jump in his direction.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
I remember reading news stories about that causing a fuss somewhere... Some kind of religious thing they do, though I've never seen it in person... I actually have a bit of Jewish ancestry, but I'd never heard of it before then.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I remember reading news stories about that causing a fuss somewhere... Some kind of religious thing they do, though I've never seen it in person... I actually have a bit of Jewish ancestry, but I'd never heard of it before then.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)There were a whole bunch of them on that plane. These guys with the black hats and the long sideburns; they didn’t stopped doing something for 8 hours – walking through the cabin, some rituals in the airplane kitchen etc. When we approached for landing couple of them passed between the seats asking everyone on the plane if he or she is a Jewish. We had a heavy landing and when eventually all of them started singing loudly some anthem the cabin crew/Lufthansa/ lost their nerves and yelled them to cut it off.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Why don't you petition the government to ban guns?
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Why don't you go back to cooking socks you retarded little kid.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. or "Drink. Get drunk. Fall over." - P O'H
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But as Christian said... People were stupid. That wouldn't work a second time. Before 9/11, the general attitude to an airplane hijacking was to cooperate with the hijackers, because their motivation was always theft, not murder. Now, the stakes are higher, and people aren't going to tolerate it. The next hijacking attempt (Has there even been one since?), people are going to ASSUME the worst, and won't sit by and let something like that happen again. If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Every time I've flown since 9/11, the first thing I do when I sit down is feel to make sure I know how to easily release the side of the seat belt with the buckle from the seat. If anything happens, I want to get it loose and hopefully, someone gets a mouth full of buckle before I go down. Could be used as a garotte, too. :rolleyes:
Once you agree to clans, tribes, governments...you've opted for socialism. The rest is just details.
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Supposedly the world trade center was destroyed by a few terrorist with box cutters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
I voted your message a 3 as an expression of my utter boredom with your pathetic hallucinations.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
But as Christian said... People were stupid. That wouldn't work a second time. Before 9/11, the general attitude to an airplane hijacking was to cooperate with the hijackers, because their motivation was always theft, not murder. Now, the stakes are higher, and people aren't going to tolerate it. The next hijacking attempt (Has there even been one since?), people are going to ASSUME the worst, and won't sit by and let something like that happen again. If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Like the man said: "let's roll."
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
digital man wrote:
Really? Many people who carry guns have never actually had to use them. To draw your weapon and shoot at another person, never having done so before, even if directly threatened, is not most peoples first instinct unless you have been highly trained to do so.
Let me put it this way. Guns here are tools; as such they are frequently used. People are used to working with them, just as they are used to working with their horses or cattle. Guns aren't something whose use is theoretical; they aren't something that's only used in the sterile environment of a shooting range. To get to my house, I have to drive across several miles of open rangeland. A week or so ago I turned off the paved road and onto the dirt road crossing the range. Just a hundred feet or so off the main road was the rancher's pickup. He was sitting at the wheel with a .22, aiming out the window and nailing gophers. The .22 lives in the gunrack in his pickup. When he needs to use it, it's there, he grabs it and he's a damned good shot. When I saw him I didn't think twice about it; can you imagine the reaction in most places? If this had been California, there would have been people freaking out, nutters protesting to save the gophers... And that's the way it is here. People are comfortable with guns as they are with a hammer or a saw. A lot of people are accustomed to shooting stuff a hell of a lot bigger than gophers, too. It's a different world than a city, where people may own guns, but hardly ever use them, and never, ever use them to shoot at another creature. All those rifles you see in gun racks in pickup trucks in these parts aren't there for show, and they aren't there to try and intimidate people - these aren't rednecks, they're ranchers, and they know how to use their guns.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Friday, June 4, 2010 1:04 PM
LunaticFringe wrote:
All those rifles you see in gun racks in pickup trucks in these parts aren't there for show, and they aren't there to try and intimidate people - these aren't rednecks, they're ranchers, and they know how to use their guns.
I have no doubt that is true though I still think that shooting a another person is a little diferent from shooting a gopher or a deer.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven nils illegitimus carborundum
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LunaticFringe wrote:
All those rifles you see in gun racks in pickup trucks in these parts aren't there for show, and they aren't there to try and intimidate people - these aren't rednecks, they're ranchers, and they know how to use their guns.
I have no doubt that is true though I still think that shooting a another person is a little diferent from shooting a gopher or a deer.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven nils illegitimus carborundum
No doubt. But the tools would be available; it's hard to imagine a crowd of ranchers cowering in a bar when they'd probably have weapons of their own close at hand. And if an armed group felt they were in imminent danger from an easily identified individual and felt a need to defend themselves, I think any inhibition against shooting would be much less profound. Like I said, the shooter would probably have his head blown off in short order.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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But as Christian said... People were stupid. That wouldn't work a second time. Before 9/11, the general attitude to an airplane hijacking was to cooperate with the hijackers, because their motivation was always theft, not murder. Now, the stakes are higher, and people aren't going to tolerate it. The next hijacking attempt (Has there even been one since?), people are going to ASSUME the worst, and won't sit by and let something like that happen again. If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Much easier to fight back if you have a gun... Britains' crime rate has risen more than 40% since they denied people the right to have guns; now only the criminals can get them, and will always be able to get them. Only honest, law-abiding citizens can't. Britain is the last country that should be lecturing anyone about violent crime...
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(The following is only partially tongue in cheek...) Hey, look at it this way - at least people in the US would be able to give accurate testimony regarding the weapon(s) used. Can't find the BBC story at the moment, but... one witness, widely quoted, described how the perp stalked his first victims around a taxi stand. The witness repeatedly described the weapon, which he saw up close, as a 'shotgun with a scope'. First, come on - a shotgun and a scope are kind of mutually exclusive concepts. The police said he had a .22 with a scope, and a shotgun. Anyone with the faintest knowledge of firearms would never mistake a .22 for a shotgun, especially when viewing the business end from up close. Admittedly, the witness was probably a little rattled, but still. A likely explanation is that the guy is only familiar with long guns in the context of skeet shooting clubs (that he would never belong to), so he had no idea what kind of weapon he was looking at and he called it the only type he was even vaguely familiar with. Now, an American would have been able to distinguish the guage or caliber of the weapon ... and a good American would have used his own large-caliber handgun to take the bastard down. I mean this guy drove around for how long (?) through rural areas, from town to town... while the radio broadcast warnings to all and sundry. Crowds were hiding in pubs... if that had been Wyoming, fucker would have had his head blown off within minutes of the alarm having been raised. ;P
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Thursday, June 3, 2010 8:23 PM
LunaticFringe wrote:
if that had been Wyoming, f***er would have had his head blown off within minutes of the alarm having been raised.
Along with anyone else unlucky enough to be driving a car the same colour. It's weird, from my point of view the person who would know enough about guns to describe it in detail is the one with the issue and the one I would not want around me if I was anywhere near the guy.