Gun crime even in Britain [modified]
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16. Copeland, DavidDavid Copeland, 22 04.30 April 30 1999 London U.K. 3 79 79 O Sentenced to 6 concurrent life sentences 16. Stone, Michael, 32 03.16 March 16 1988 Belfast U.K. 3 68 68 F O Sentenced to 682 years Both killed the same number of people, yet the sentences were wildly different. Of course one is Irish, the other English...
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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16. Copeland, DavidDavid Copeland, 22 04.30 April 30 1999 London U.K. 3 79 79 O Sentenced to 6 concurrent life sentences 16. Stone, Michael, 32 03.16 March 16 1988 Belfast U.K. 3 68 68 F O Sentenced to 682 years Both killed the same number of people, yet the sentences were wildly different. Of course one is Irish, the other English...
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
Micheal Stone was a terrorist Copeland was the nail bomber that targeted the blacks and gays
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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digital man wrote:
The only people who have them are the police and the army. Of course criminals have them. And farmers,
And people who hunt, or shoot, or do target shooting, or just collect old guns (which dont need a permit), or schools which have cadet forces. So, in my time in the UK I have fired: Rifles: Lee Enfield MK1V .303 Remingtion .308 Martini Henry .22 Anschutz .22 Lee Enfield .22 Remington .22 Pistols: Remington 9mm Colt .36 Navy A .22 target pistol Shotguns: Winchester 12 gauge repeater Remington 12 gauge semi automatic Various 12 gauge side by sides and over unders And an 8 gauge goose gun (with rather nice Damascus twist barrles) .410 The school also had a Bren gun but I never fired it. My father in law (who is an avid hunter and gun dealer has an extraordinary selection of guns rifles and pistols, (even a Smith and Wesson .359) none of which I have ever used). During all this time I have never had a license for a weapon, nor have I ever owned one. SO you can see there are rather a lot knocking around the UK.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
And people who hunt, or shoot, or do target shooting, or just collect old guns (which dont need a permit), or schools which have cadet forces.
You are correct - just thought my list was already getting too long but worth you adding the others.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven nils illegitimus carborundum
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Micheal Stone was a terrorist Copeland was the nail bomber that targeted the blacks and gays
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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Simon_Whale wrote:
Copeland was the nail bomber that targeted the blacks and gays
Is that not terrorising blacks and gays then?
techincally yes, but he was a lunatic acting alone, rather than being a member of a terrorist organisation.
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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techincally yes, but he was a lunatic acting alone, rather than being a member of a terrorist organisation.
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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fat_boy wrote:
And people who hunt, or shoot, or do target shooting, or just collect old guns (which dont need a permit), or schools which have cadet forces.
You are correct - just thought my list was already getting too long but worth you adding the others.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven nils illegitimus carborundum
Yeah, even though the UK is very restrictive. In France I have seen hunting rifles just hanging above the fireplace in peoles houses, and I believe in Belgium it is very easy to get guns of all sorts. (The son of the Vlams Belang guy who shot the Muslim woman with a shotgun in Antwerp a few years back had apparently just gone in and bought it.)
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Well, to be fair, the US has such a huge rate of crimes like this compared to the rest of the world, that it's another thing where the rest of the world shakes their head sadly and says 'only in America'. They invented it, and they are the touchstone for it. That doesn't mean there are not lunatics in other parts of the world, of course.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
rest of the world shakes their head sadly and says 'only in America'. They invented it,
Except to leave out their own country's failings then of course its okay.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Yeah, even though the UK is very restrictive. In France I have seen hunting rifles just hanging above the fireplace in peoles houses, and I believe in Belgium it is very easy to get guns of all sorts. (The son of the Vlams Belang guy who shot the Muslim woman with a shotgun in Antwerp a few years back had apparently just gone in and bought it.)
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
The son of the Vlams Belang guy who shot the Muslim woman with a shotgun in Antwerp a few years back had apparently just gone in and bought it.
Just for that purpose?
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven nils illegitimus carborundum
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Guns are illegal here in the UK. The only people who have them are the police and the army. Of course criminals have them. And farmers, who are allowed. You can apply for a license but that is quite hard to get. I have never handled a real weapon whilst in the UK. What would be the point? The vast majority of people have no need of them, for any reason. The gunman, apparently, had a gun license for many years though I've not seen why he needed them.
LunaticFringe wrote:
if that had been Wyoming, f***er would have had his head blown off within minutes of the alarm having been raised.
Really? Many people who carry guns have never actually had to use them. To draw your weapon and shoot at another person, never having done so before, even if directly threatened, is not most peoples first instinct unless you have been highly trained to do so.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven nils illegitimus carborundum
digital man wrote:
Really? Many people who carry guns have never actually had to use them. To draw your weapon and shoot at another person, never having done so before, even if directly threatened, is not most peoples first instinct unless you have been highly trained to do so.
Let me put it this way. Guns here are tools; as such they are frequently used. People are used to working with them, just as they are used to working with their horses or cattle. Guns aren't something whose use is theoretical; they aren't something that's only used in the sterile environment of a shooting range. To get to my house, I have to drive across several miles of open rangeland. A week or so ago I turned off the paved road and onto the dirt road crossing the range. Just a hundred feet or so off the main road was the rancher's pickup. He was sitting at the wheel with a .22, aiming out the window and nailing gophers. The .22 lives in the gunrack in his pickup. When he needs to use it, it's there, he grabs it and he's a damned good shot. When I saw him I didn't think twice about it; can you imagine the reaction in most places? If this had been California, there would have been people freaking out, nutters protesting to save the gophers... And that's the way it is here. People are comfortable with guns as they are with a hammer or a saw. A lot of people are accustomed to shooting stuff a hell of a lot bigger than gophers, too. It's a different world than a city, where people may own guns, but hardly ever use them, and never, ever use them to shoot at another creature. All those rifles you see in gun racks in pickup trucks in these parts aren't there for show, and they aren't there to try and intimidate people - these aren't rednecks, they're ranchers, and they know how to use their guns.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Friday, June 4, 2010 1:04 PM
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Supposedly the world trade center was destroyed by a few terrorist with box cutters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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No way man. I heard it was like George Bush and the oil companies. All the truths are out there on the interweb!
But the government said it was ragheads with box cutters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Supposedly the world trade center was destroyed by a few terrorist with box cutters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
But as Christian said... People were stupid. That wouldn't work a second time. Before 9/11, the general attitude to an airplane hijacking was to cooperate with the hijackers, because their motivation was always theft, not murder. Now, the stakes are higher, and people aren't going to tolerate it. The next hijacking attempt (Has there even been one since?), people are going to ASSUME the worst, and won't sit by and let something like that happen again. If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Well, to be fair, the US has such a huge rate of crimes like this compared to the rest of the world, that it's another thing where the rest of the world shakes their head sadly and says 'only in America'. They invented it, and they are the touchstone for it. That doesn't mean there are not lunatics in other parts of the world, of course.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, to be fair, the US has such a huge rate of crimes like this compared to the rest of the world,
There were a few similar cases in Germany during the last several years. Given the almost four times deferens in the population with US I’m not sure who will be the winner in this competition.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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But as Christian said... People were stupid. That wouldn't work a second time. Before 9/11, the general attitude to an airplane hijacking was to cooperate with the hijackers, because their motivation was always theft, not murder. Now, the stakes are higher, and people aren't going to tolerate it. The next hijacking attempt (Has there even been one since?), people are going to ASSUME the worst, and won't sit by and let something like that happen again. If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels):thumbsup:
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Funny, some guys got quite far with box cutters... It isn't about the weapon, it is about the circumstances allowing the weapon to be used for greatest effect.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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But as Christian said... People were stupid. That wouldn't work a second time. Before 9/11, the general attitude to an airplane hijacking was to cooperate with the hijackers, because their motivation was always theft, not murder. Now, the stakes are higher, and people aren't going to tolerate it. The next hijacking attempt (Has there even been one since?), people are going to ASSUME the worst, and won't sit by and let something like that happen again. If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
A few years ago on a flight from Europe to US, when some radical Jewish nut two seats from me half-undressed himself and start wrapping long leather strap around his arms, I was ready to jump in his direction.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
If they think they're going to die anyway, it becomes an easy choice... Fight back and maybe die, or don't fight and definitely die.
A few years ago on a flight from Europe to US, when some radical Jewish nut two seats from me half-undressed himself and start wrapping long leather strap around his arms, I was ready to jump in his direction.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
I remember reading news stories about that causing a fuss somewhere... Some kind of religious thing they do, though I've never seen it in person... I actually have a bit of Jewish ancestry, but I'd never heard of it before then.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)