,NET to PHP
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RichardMant wrote:
Hope you can see where I'm coming from with this as it's not a crime to use free languages and free software, but (imho) it is a crime to get stuck down to just one language pair (ASP.net/MSSQL) just because you cannot see the merits of a different language pair (PHP/MySQL) and accept when a client wants to use them Wink .
No, of course it isn't a crime to use free languages and tools - by no means. It's no crime to have exposure to multiple technologies either - if you have the bandwidth to do so. I started to find after awhile that trying to master two (or more) completely different technologies (at the same time, at least) made it difficult to develop proficiency in either one of them. Perhaps I'm just getting old and tired compared with some of the younger hot-shots around here but it's not easy to study two different disciplines at the same time! ;-) For example: I spent some time recently studying the Java platform. While there is a lot of commonality between it and C# the syntax of the two (and the toolset) are just enough different that I would constantly be trying to remember what goes with what. (I run into this when coding VB.Net vs C#) Yes, I could do it - and probably make it work, however I developed the distinct feeling like I was standing on two boats that were drifting apart. There's massive amounts of learning to be done for both platforms if you want to become proficient in (and keep up with) either one of them. So ... it was either step onto one boat or the other or fall into the water. I can, at least, say that I have some EXPOSURE to the Java platform - however when it came down to spending money on books and development tools to become proficient at I had to pick one and that had to be .Net in my case. (I've been Microsoft platform for a long time, so a complete switch would be like throwing the car into reverse at 80MPH!). Finally ... if you're really concerned with being a QUALITY developer, you have to develop the ability to know which jobs to walk away from. (I can hear the consultants shuddering in their boots). I would much rather walk away from an assignment that involves a technology that I only marginally know than to get knee deep in it and have to spend too much "catch-up" time trying to make it all work. My point? Develop proficiency in as much as you can - but be careful not to spread yourself too thin. If you REALLY CAN become an expert in both ASP.Net and PHP and maintain eng
It is a fair point (the walking away bit) however, C# => Java is a massive jump and you should not compare the syntaxes as they are different (I don't do Java either, btw; Exposure is my limit to it too for the moment). I would have said going from C++ => Java is easier, imho. But I still won't loose sight of where you're coming from. (your analogy of the car being thrown into reverse sounds quite fun actually, btw.. :P) I'm not saying the OP shouldn't walk away from this, but what I was meaning is they should not be so scorning about the languages they were being asked to use which comes back to the point of my first post.. Languages become popular, normally, because they have advantages over others, and a problem must have an appropriate language picked to solve it. I've seen some really great stuff coded in ASP(.net) (CodeProject's site for one!) but I've also seem some atrocious stuff that can be attributed solely to a bad pick of language or simply the developer being too anti other languages of the same class to recognise them as options that might be better (PHP and ASP.net being of the same class: Web languages). The same goes for PHP sites.
The worst thing about the darkness is the light at the end - DX-MON
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I would actually disagree with you on this. For rapid (visual) development PHP is a clear winner for me. This comes from a programmer that started out with PHP and then got involved with the .NET framework, C# and ASP.NET. To me PHP is just much easier to understand, the way a page is rendered to the screen in ASP.NET confuses me a lot! Besides that I'd say that learning PHP for a .NET programmer is very easy. PHP.net has excellent documentation, better than MSDN in my opinion. I must say that I don't program many functions within PHP. Aside from some often used tools, login classes and some security stuff I hardly use OOP within PHP. Both are fine programming languages but I'd advise the OP to just give PHP a go, maybe not for this project, but just try it some time. You might like it ;)
I had a question for you regarding that rapid development. I'm an ASP.NET dev, and I've recently become interested in PHP. Largely because of Facebook, and how easy they make it to use their PHP API. The PHP language itself is ok, I actually prefer Ruby syntax and more of an OOP approach, but I have no real problem with the language itself, and the ubiquity of it makes PHP a breeze to deploy. What I'm concerned about are the tools/components. Microsoft seems to have put all their eggs into the '1-click databound awesomeness basket', and while they are a little inflexible at times, they do make your plain vanilla datagrid/repeater stuff really quick and easy. Does PHP have anything that parallels these types of controls?
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
As far as MySQL vs. Sql Server - It's pretty much a wash. As long as you stick to ANSI queries they both are identical. PHP vs. DotNet is another issue. PHP is probably running on a LAMP server (Linux-Apache-MySql-PHP) which means it is all free. To switch to DotNet would require implementing (purchasing) a MS Server solution of some sort. Could be big additional bucks depending on their requirements. W3Schools has a pretty good PHP tutorial that can get you started. There are others... There are also some pretty good PHP IDEs out there.
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I had a question for you regarding that rapid development. I'm an ASP.NET dev, and I've recently become interested in PHP. Largely because of Facebook, and how easy they make it to use their PHP API. The PHP language itself is ok, I actually prefer Ruby syntax and more of an OOP approach, but I have no real problem with the language itself, and the ubiquity of it makes PHP a breeze to deploy. What I'm concerned about are the tools/components. Microsoft seems to have put all their eggs into the '1-click databound awesomeness basket', and while they are a little inflexible at times, they do make your plain vanilla datagrid/repeater stuff really quick and easy. Does PHP have anything that parallels these types of controls?
Well, for as far as I know PHP does not have controls sets through any IDE. I have never been a fan of the drag and drop approach within programming languages and when i'm building ASP.NET websites you would see me coding it anyway. With that said, there are libraries which offer specific sets of tools for PHP. jQuery is an example of this library, and yes I do know that this is javascript but it's perfectly integratable with PHP. Personally I've programmed PHP for 7 years with notepad and an FTP application. Last year I started using NotePad++ which does Syntax coloring for me which is always great. If you want to take a step further in rapid PHP development I'd advise you to take a good look as Vs.PHP http://www.jcxsoftware.com/vs.php[^]. This is a plugin for your Visual Studio environment of choice and provides syntax coloring, instellisense and debugging for your PHP websites. If you have any other question, ask away :)
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
I will add my voice to the choir: MySQL is somewhat cheaper than SQL PHP plays nice with MySQL Both php and MySQL are FREE. Expanding/Duplicating systems is therefore also free. Neither application is worried about what Micro$oft will due next. Change your ways, Grasshopper !
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek dissappointment. If you are searching for perfection in yourself, then you seek failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Well, for as far as I know PHP does not have controls sets through any IDE. I have never been a fan of the drag and drop approach within programming languages and when i'm building ASP.NET websites you would see me coding it anyway. With that said, there are libraries which offer specific sets of tools for PHP. jQuery is an example of this library, and yes I do know that this is javascript but it's perfectly integratable with PHP. Personally I've programmed PHP for 7 years with notepad and an FTP application. Last year I started using NotePad++ which does Syntax coloring for me which is always great. If you want to take a step further in rapid PHP development I'd advise you to take a good look as Vs.PHP http://www.jcxsoftware.com/vs.php[^]. This is a plugin for your Visual Studio environment of choice and provides syntax coloring, instellisense and debugging for your PHP websites. If you have any other question, ask away :)
Thanks for the info! I use Visual Studio all day and I love it, but I'm a huge fan of the hammer + nails approach, and Notepad++ is one of my favorite tools. Also, for dynamically typed languages like PHP and Ruby, I find the intellisense can't be too great anyway. More and more I'm of the mindset that fancy tools often remove flexibility and power from what I'm trying to do. As far as the libraries you mentioned, do they have the concept of databound controls? In other words, in classic ASP I'd have to write a for loop and for each record in the db i'd generate table markup by hand. In ASP.NET I can just pass a dataset or datatable object to a gridview control and it lays it out for me, generating all the markup. Again, it can be very inflexible when you want to get fancy, but for plain vanilla data presentation it is a MAJOR time-saver, especially now that it has built in sorting and paging. Does PHP have controls like these out there in the public domain, or does everyone roll their own?
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
Perhaps you are asking the wrong question. If the customer has a PHP/MySQL base and you are not comfortable working with these, then perhaps you should recommend another developer for the task instead of trying to change the customer. On the other hand if you can work in NET/SQL, you should not have much problem working in PHP/MySQL. Most languages have similar structure; the most significant differences are syntax.
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
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With experience it becomes a mental step that does not require work on paper. However, when confronted with something new and scary it breaks it down into something a lot more management. Irregardless, to use an imaginary word, it is a legitimate deliverable step.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Irregardless is not a word :-) The correct word is simply "regardless"
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Irregardless is not a word :-) The correct word is simply "regardless"
Reread my post. "Irregardless, to use an imaginary word, it is a legitimate deliverable step."
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
I'm sorry but it sounds like you're looking for a way to justify choosing .NET over PHP. I will answer your question rather as "Why .NET vs PHP?" .NET relies on a centrally controlled library. Your code is basically pseudo code which gets interpreted and delivered to the client browser. What this means is .NET has the advantage of cross-browser support out of the box without any special programming. Trying to do so in PHP is more of a manual process or piecemeal. Another advantage to the central library aka .NET is one patch enables (or on a rare note, disables) more features, possibly more browser support without any change to the web page code. Security issues such as SQL injection is handled by .NET as well as others. The chances of forgetting to call a "Cleaning" function in PHP presents a problem for the loose PHP programmer. Also, I had been avoiding .NET as it is a buzzword, and I know this one in particular colleague of mine who talks .NET to a point where it sounds complex, confusing, and impressive. Recently, however, I have delved into .NET and I have to laugh at the ease at which everything is done. The next time I spoke with my colleague and she started rambling about .NET, I told her I took a look at it and created some proof-of-concept pages to help me understand it. She was like, "WOW, you did that?" I told her my overview of .NET as it is more a "point, click, and done" system than a language or developer environment. I told her, ".NET, Silverlight, all the same thing. It's really impressive in its centrally managed core, but it's not for me. I like getting my hands dirty." So that is my take on the situation. .NET/Silverlight is great, but it's not for me. If you want to impress your clients, tell them you'll be developing in .NET AND Silverlight and they will be impressed. Silverlight is kind of a buzzword now and I told my co-workers I have done some of our web pages in Silverlight and they pretty much did a jaw drop. You can imagine how a non-developer would react... I hope you find this useful. Gary
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AndyInUK wrote:
Which one is better ?
Impossible question to answer. There are too many variables to consider and each is equally good when used properly for the right purposes.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
First of all, "Impossible" is a poor choice of words. Second of all, well, actually... That's all. Anyway, it depends on context and perspective. In the relatively short message which sparked this discussion, AndyInUK obviously is leaning toward .NET. It may disgust me that a language and development platform exists where you can literally not use the keyboard AT ALL to create data driven web sites. Follow me here - Start->Programs->Microsoft Visual Studio 2010->Microsoft Visual Studio 2010 File->New->Project Silverlight->Silverlight Business Application OK Next->next->next til the thing stops doing stuff. Under Solution Explorer on the right, there is BusinessApplication1 and BusinessApplication1.Web. Under BusinessApplication1.Web, right-click on Models, then Add->New Item. Data->ADO.NET Entity (blah blah) Next->next->next, click the database and table (windows authentication is default), then next->next til the thing stops doing stuff. Build->Build Solution Under BusinessApplication1.Web, right-click Services, Add->New Item Web->Domain Service Class Next->next->next (click the table you picked in the ADO.NET Entity step above), then next->next til the thing stops doing stuff. Open the Toolbox, click and drag DataGrid to the MainPage.xaml page (you may have to close the other data model windows etc, or just click on the tab which says MainPage.xaml first). On the right, under Properies, expand Columns, then put a checkmark in "AutoGener..." (depending on your screen size, it may say "AutoGenerateColumns") Debug->Start Without Debugging There you have it. So if your computer doesn't have a keyboard or you don't want to use it, you can develop entire silverlight sites, although all your sites and pages will be named BusinessApplication1, BusinessApplication2, and so forth. Minor setback. If the client says, "I just want a website", then you're done. Again, .NET/Silverlight (one and the same to me,) does not appeal to me (as shown in my post further down), but it is a powerful tool and I wouldn't bash someone for choosing it. My choice of PHP over .NET is just personal. One of my personal pet-peeves. "To each, their own" - Someone famous... Gary
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First of all, "Impossible" is a poor choice of words. Second of all, well, actually... That's all. Anyway, it depends on context and perspective. In the relatively short message which sparked this discussion, AndyInUK obviously is leaning toward .NET. It may disgust me that a language and development platform exists where you can literally not use the keyboard AT ALL to create data driven web sites. Follow me here - Start->Programs->Microsoft Visual Studio 2010->Microsoft Visual Studio 2010 File->New->Project Silverlight->Silverlight Business Application OK Next->next->next til the thing stops doing stuff. Under Solution Explorer on the right, there is BusinessApplication1 and BusinessApplication1.Web. Under BusinessApplication1.Web, right-click on Models, then Add->New Item. Data->ADO.NET Entity (blah blah) Next->next->next, click the database and table (windows authentication is default), then next->next til the thing stops doing stuff. Build->Build Solution Under BusinessApplication1.Web, right-click Services, Add->New Item Web->Domain Service Class Next->next->next (click the table you picked in the ADO.NET Entity step above), then next->next til the thing stops doing stuff. Open the Toolbox, click and drag DataGrid to the MainPage.xaml page (you may have to close the other data model windows etc, or just click on the tab which says MainPage.xaml first). On the right, under Properies, expand Columns, then put a checkmark in "AutoGener..." (depending on your screen size, it may say "AutoGenerateColumns") Debug->Start Without Debugging There you have it. So if your computer doesn't have a keyboard or you don't want to use it, you can develop entire silverlight sites, although all your sites and pages will be named BusinessApplication1, BusinessApplication2, and so forth. Minor setback. If the client says, "I just want a website", then you're done. Again, .NET/Silverlight (one and the same to me,) does not appeal to me (as shown in my post further down), but it is a powerful tool and I wouldn't bash someone for choosing it. My choice of PHP over .NET is just personal. One of my personal pet-peeves. "To each, their own" - Someone famous... Gary
Perhaps you should put this in an article, "How to build an ASP.NET web application without a keyboard" A very short sighted rant from a close-minded language snob, but thanks for sharing.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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I'm sorry but it sounds like you're looking for a way to justify choosing .NET over PHP. I will answer your question rather as "Why .NET vs PHP?" .NET relies on a centrally controlled library. Your code is basically pseudo code which gets interpreted and delivered to the client browser. What this means is .NET has the advantage of cross-browser support out of the box without any special programming. Trying to do so in PHP is more of a manual process or piecemeal. Another advantage to the central library aka .NET is one patch enables (or on a rare note, disables) more features, possibly more browser support without any change to the web page code. Security issues such as SQL injection is handled by .NET as well as others. The chances of forgetting to call a "Cleaning" function in PHP presents a problem for the loose PHP programmer. Also, I had been avoiding .NET as it is a buzzword, and I know this one in particular colleague of mine who talks .NET to a point where it sounds complex, confusing, and impressive. Recently, however, I have delved into .NET and I have to laugh at the ease at which everything is done. The next time I spoke with my colleague and she started rambling about .NET, I told her I took a look at it and created some proof-of-concept pages to help me understand it. She was like, "WOW, you did that?" I told her my overview of .NET as it is more a "point, click, and done" system than a language or developer environment. I told her, ".NET, Silverlight, all the same thing. It's really impressive in its centrally managed core, but it's not for me. I like getting my hands dirty." So that is my take on the situation. .NET/Silverlight is great, but it's not for me. If you want to impress your clients, tell them you'll be developing in .NET AND Silverlight and they will be impressed. Silverlight is kind of a buzzword now and I told my co-workers I have done some of our web pages in Silverlight and they pretty much did a jaw drop. You can imagine how a non-developer would react... I hope you find this useful. Gary
Sounds like you are enjoying your little pond, try a swim in the ocean. Hope the pond doesn't dry up before then, it's the big fish that don't survive.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Perhaps you are asking the wrong question. If the customer has a PHP/MySQL base and you are not comfortable working with these, then perhaps you should recommend another developer for the task instead of trying to change the customer. On the other hand if you can work in NET/SQL, you should not have much problem working in PHP/MySQL. Most languages have similar structure; the most significant differences are syntax.
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
Okay, now. I was ALMOST able to stomach your comment about .NET/SQL being similar, especially to a point where MarkInUK should not have much problem moving to PHP/MySQL. REALLY now... I mean REALLY. Saying they are similar is like saying "Dog" is similar to "Blue". Come on now...
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Sounds like you are enjoying your little pond, try a swim in the ocean. Hope the pond doesn't dry up before then, it's the big fish that don't survive.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Perhaps you should put this in an article, "How to build an ASP.NET web application without a keyboard" A very short sighted rant from a close-minded language snob, but thanks for sharing.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Thanks for the info! I use Visual Studio all day and I love it, but I'm a huge fan of the hammer + nails approach, and Notepad++ is one of my favorite tools. Also, for dynamically typed languages like PHP and Ruby, I find the intellisense can't be too great anyway. More and more I'm of the mindset that fancy tools often remove flexibility and power from what I'm trying to do. As far as the libraries you mentioned, do they have the concept of databound controls? In other words, in classic ASP I'd have to write a for loop and for each record in the db i'd generate table markup by hand. In ASP.NET I can just pass a dataset or datatable object to a gridview control and it lays it out for me, generating all the markup. Again, it can be very inflexible when you want to get fancy, but for plain vanilla data presentation it is a MAJOR time-saver, especially now that it has built in sorting and paging. Does PHP have controls like these out there in the public domain, or does everyone roll their own?
For as far as I know there is no such thing as databound controls of any kind. I'd say it's just writing a loop to generate each table record by hand. To be honest with you, i'm a big fan of this approach. DataBound controls in ASP.NET make me feel like I don't have direct control over my output anymore. For example: I couldn't find out how to disable a button for specific rows in the databound control. In the manual hand written loop it's as easy as a simple if check.
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
I would fight to use .NET but I have no exp with PHP. On the mySQL vs SQL Server thing mySQL is really nice but again no exp in SQL Server so maybe I just don't know any better. Humble Programmer
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For as far as I know there is no such thing as databound controls of any kind. I'd say it's just writing a loop to generate each table record by hand. To be honest with you, i'm a big fan of this approach. DataBound controls in ASP.NET make me feel like I don't have direct control over my output anymore. For example: I couldn't find out how to disable a button for specific rows in the databound control. In the manual hand written loop it's as easy as a simple if check.
A few years ago I would have disagreed with you and touted how fast I could throw together a master detail page, with sorting, and caching and the whole bit. But nowadays, I am almost constantly running into things which are either impossible with these fancy tools, or take a level of research and trial and error that A)undo the work the tool had saved you and frequently B)add a layer of complexity and general 'not-obviousness' to your solution which will trip up another dev(or you) in the future. And every time this happens I find myself wishing we'd gone the hammer & nails route. I'm definitely one that hates reinventing the wheel, and I'm always making tools to speed up dev tasks. But lately I'm getting very sensitive to any tool or approach that removes flexibility. As a for instance, did you know that the ASP.NET Gridview, one of the most ubiquitous controls out there, WILL NOT let you insert a column at runtime, nor will it let you remove a column from the middle, or rearrange the columns at runtime, unless you turn off the ViewState, and lose all your fancy sorting/filtering/caching. That seems like a pretty common request of a control that just manages columns and rows. And Microsoft acknowledged this bug 5 years ago and said they were unable to fix it in 2005, still unable in 2008, and now we have visual studio 2010, and the bug is still so deep down in their codebase that they can't risk a change like that. Sounds crazy if you ask me. No wonder people pay for Infragistcs and Telerik controls. But then those have their own set of issues.
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Reread my post. "Irregardless, to use an imaginary word, it is a legitimate deliverable step."
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Haha, I though 'deliverable step' was the imaginary word. And yes, one of my primary school teachers insisted on called multi-word phrases 'words', but then half my primary school English teachers were native Afrikaners and less than perfect at English. :rolleyes: