Walk a Mile in my Shoes
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"I believe it is these tangential code-cowboy qualities women are unable or unwilling to emulate, and not their skill or capacity for abstraction, problem solving, creative thinking, or communication — All of which actually make them better developers". Isn't this just a trifle sexist in itself? I'd accept this as a polemic position, but I doubt the writer has the subtlety to do this. She actually undermines her own argument in a later response: "CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men)....." I'd also highlight this as a telling statement "I had a manager tell me I should stop writing code and focus on powerpoint and management, areas he found to be more in line with my talents. Was it because I’m a woman?". Possibly it was, but equally possibly he might have been correct. My hunch is, if she didn't like the idea of coding as a rigorous discipline, and the manager was a good developer, he probably had a point. Computational theory is after, all abstract, we abstract real-world problem into code, therefore coding itself is an abstract process. If you can't get your head around that, or at least understand the basics of the theory behind programming, you are never going to be a great dev IMO, and "stubbornella" sounds like she falls into that category. I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist (plainly it does), but I really didn't like the tenor of her argument. Most of the companies I have worked at have had problems hiring enough female staff. I was discussing a female candidate with an ex-boss of mine after her interview finished, I still remember what he said: "I was really hopeful to hire her, out [male to female] ratios are way too low, but when we asked the technical questions she wasn't up to scratch at all". I've actually heard similar statements at most of the companies I've worked at. The fundamental problem IMO is that there are too few women at the intake (university / post 16) level. For some reason women in the west don't want to take IT/Comp.Sci. Contrary to most people's expectations, in the Middle East, (where I'm currently lecturing) the situation is much better. At my university in the UK there were few female students (~10%), and the ability range went from excellent down to pretty bad (just like the chaps). Bursaries / awards were available to "encourage women into the industry" which meant that fe
I think in the West that is exactly the problem. My mother had studied Physics long before women 'did' such a thing but she took ill before she finished, so I was encouraged, cajoled etc all my childhood to study science. There was no option. I never thought of it as unusual until I went to Uni and found my Math(s) and Physics classes were nearly all male.
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
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IMO the sad thing is that she needed you to back her up.
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
What? My wife? It's a good job she's a nicer person than me, otherwise she'd have ripped him a new one. I'm just a bit protective of my family - nobody messes when Papa Bear's around to dispense his righteous wrath.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Also In certain company and dressed like this you could have another body parts strained as well.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
That might be the least of your problems at that point.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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This was in the CP Newsletter today so most of you will have seen it. Women in Technology[^]
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
Look, many brilliant and smart people belong to one form or another of discriminated group. Yet they excel in their prospective field above and beyond the norms. Yes, discrimination exists however subtly. But most of us blame other for the things we could not achieve by our own. I speak this as a person who have experienced discrimination because of my origin, skin color or ethnicity. In most cases, I brush it off and propel to prove them otherwise. It takes hard work and at the end you see the light. I've worked with handful of women. Some are brilliant, some average and some should never have sat between the keyboard and screen. Yet, at the end I judge them to what they can/could/did accomplish rather than who they are. I have hired some and and showed others the door. Again, discrimination exist in all forms, but the burden of extraditing it starts with every individual to rise above the occasion.
Yusuf May I help you?
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You're right. Elaine is really a MMA trucker called Harold. The good Anna Jayne is actually Englebert Humperdink, and Chris' disproportionate number of lady team members are all Transformers. Let's not forget Ali P - she's really Dalek Dave. On the other side, JSOP is really Cindy Crawford.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
JSOP is really Cindy Crawford
Ow. My brain just segfaulted.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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Look, many brilliant and smart people belong to one form or another of discriminated group. Yet they excel in their prospective field above and beyond the norms. Yes, discrimination exists however subtly. But most of us blame other for the things we could not achieve by our own. I speak this as a person who have experienced discrimination because of my origin, skin color or ethnicity. In most cases, I brush it off and propel to prove them otherwise. It takes hard work and at the end you see the light. I've worked with handful of women. Some are brilliant, some average and some should never have sat between the keyboard and screen. Yet, at the end I judge them to what they can/could/did accomplish rather than who they are. I have hired some and and showed others the door. Again, discrimination exist in all forms, but the burden of extraditing it starts with every individual to rise above the occasion.
Yusuf May I help you?
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Look, many brilliant and smart people belong to one form or another of discriminated group. Yet they excel in their prospective field above and beyond the norms. Yes, discrimination exists however subtly. But most of us blame other for the things we could not achieve by our own. I speak this as a person who have experienced discrimination because of my origin, skin color or ethnicity. In most cases, I brush it off and propel to prove them otherwise. It takes hard work and at the end you see the light. I've worked with handful of women. Some are brilliant, some average and some should never have sat between the keyboard and screen. Yet, at the end I judge them to what they can/could/did accomplish rather than who they are. I have hired some and and showed others the door. Again, discrimination exist in all forms, but the burden of extraditing it starts with every individual to rise above the occasion.
Yusuf May I help you?
could not have said it better, you have my 5 Joe.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
JSOP is really Cindy Crawford
Ow. My brain just segfaulted.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
I thought that one might brainfudge people. ;)
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Hm Marken is really a non-representative location for the Netherlands :) How long did you stay there?
I was there a year and then I got transferred to the States. I loved living in Marken - I rented an old Dutch house on a terup (sp?) and cycled everywhere. The neighbours were extremely friendly. :)
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
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Look, many brilliant and smart people belong to one form or another of discriminated group. Yet they excel in their prospective field above and beyond the norms. Yes, discrimination exists however subtly. But most of us blame other for the things we could not achieve by our own. I speak this as a person who have experienced discrimination because of my origin, skin color or ethnicity. In most cases, I brush it off and propel to prove them otherwise. It takes hard work and at the end you see the light. I've worked with handful of women. Some are brilliant, some average and some should never have sat between the keyboard and screen. Yet, at the end I judge them to what they can/could/did accomplish rather than who they are. I have hired some and and showed others the door. Again, discrimination exist in all forms, but the burden of extraditing it starts with every individual to rise above the occasion.
Yusuf May I help you?
I agree with everything you said (I myself have been subject to discrimination, despite being white, male and able-bodied, a group supposedly immune from such things) except:
Yusuf wrote:
some should never have sat between the keyboard and screen
If they'd sat there, they would not have been able to type, or see the screen (depending on which way they are facing), unless they were contortionists :laugh:
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners. -
Look, many brilliant and smart people belong to one form or another of discriminated group. Yet they excel in their prospective field above and beyond the norms. Yes, discrimination exists however subtly. But most of us blame other for the things we could not achieve by our own. I speak this as a person who have experienced discrimination because of my origin, skin color or ethnicity. In most cases, I brush it off and propel to prove them otherwise. It takes hard work and at the end you see the light. I've worked with handful of women. Some are brilliant, some average and some should never have sat between the keyboard and screen. Yet, at the end I judge them to what they can/could/did accomplish rather than who they are. I have hired some and and showed others the door. Again, discrimination exist in all forms, but the burden of extraditing it starts with every individual to rise above the occasion.
Yusuf May I help you?
Yusuf wrote:
some should never have sat between the keyboard and screen
I would think none of them should have. Unless it was on my desk, of course.
He said, "Boy I'm just old and lonely, But thank you for your concern, Here's wishing you a Happy New Year." I wished him one back in return.
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I agree with everything you said (I myself have been subject to discrimination, despite being white, male and able-bodied, a group supposedly immune from such things) except:
Yusuf wrote:
some should never have sat between the keyboard and screen
If they'd sat there, they would not have been able to type, or see the screen (depending on which way they are facing), unless they were contortionists :laugh:
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.Keith Barrow wrote:
If they'd sat there, they would not have been able to type, or see the screen (depending on which way they are facing), unless they were contortionists
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Yusuf May I help you?
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
JSOP is really Cindy Crawford
Ow. My brain just segfaulted.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
That's nothing, I just laughed tea out of my nose.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners. -
That's nothing, I just laughed tea out of my nose.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.We aims to please.
Keith Barrow wrote:
I just laughed tea out of my nose.
Tannin, the opiate of the masses.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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I was there a year and then I got transferred to the States. I loved living in Marken - I rented an old Dutch house on a terup (sp?) and cycled everywhere. The neighbours were extremely friendly. :)
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
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I don't really have a point on my own account as I can't say that I have experienced much discrimination myself and I've worked in many different countries (including Holland) as a software professional. What I do notice is that so few women appear to be here on CP. In the industry in general the proportion is supposedly 10% but I can't see many women here. :((
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
AnnieMacD wrote:
What I do notice is that so few women appear to be here on CP. In the industry in general the proportion is supposedly 10% but I can't see many women here.
Oh we're here all right. Have you met the Trollslayer yet? :) FWIW few developers (maybe one in 20, if that) bother posting in online forums. Certainly just about every place I've been I've been the only dev who did so, and with so few devs being female anyway that means the number who appear in forums such as this one appears to be disproportionately low.
Anna :rose: Tech Blog | Visual Lint "Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
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This was in the CP Newsletter today so most of you will have seen it. Women in Technology[^]
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
I've worked with several women developers. One thing I've observed is that the group is small enough that when you have the inevitable loser, she can't get lost in the crowd like the loser male programmers often can. Another observation is that most good computer programmers I know already had a deep interest in computers and/or electronics in high school. I don't know if women are interested at the same rate, but the ones that are get a lot of peer pressure from other girls (and some guys, but mostly girls) to be interested in something else. My daughter, now 22, noticed this when she took several auto mechanics classes in high school. Besides learning that she could get the guys to do anything for her (something she's been gifted at since she was an hour old), she found that while guys in general would be surprised that she knew more about cars than them, they'd soon accept it, but most the girls she knew or met wouldn't. It was never clear why not, but they just didn't. Computers aren't much different. (Why aren't there more women in auto sports? Because there aren't many twelve year old girls doing Karting and rebuilding engines. Unfortunately, there is a lot of discrimination at that age, though mostly from mothers [most the dads I know love when their girls to do car things with them], but it's also because twelve year old girls in general just aren't that interested in cars.)
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AnnieMacD wrote:
What I do notice is that so few women appear to be here on CP. In the industry in general the proportion is supposedly 10% but I can't see many women here.
Oh we're here all right. Have you met the Trollslayer yet? :) FWIW few developers (maybe one in 20, if that) bother posting in online forums. Certainly just about every place I've been I've been the only dev who did so, and with so few devs being female anyway that means the number who appear in forums such as this one appears to be disproportionately low.
Anna :rose: Tech Blog | Visual Lint "Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
Get back to your Vegas sandbox Engelbert. ;P
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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I've worked with several women developers. One thing I've observed is that the group is small enough that when you have the inevitable loser, she can't get lost in the crowd like the loser male programmers often can. Another observation is that most good computer programmers I know already had a deep interest in computers and/or electronics in high school. I don't know if women are interested at the same rate, but the ones that are get a lot of peer pressure from other girls (and some guys, but mostly girls) to be interested in something else. My daughter, now 22, noticed this when she took several auto mechanics classes in high school. Besides learning that she could get the guys to do anything for her (something she's been gifted at since she was an hour old), she found that while guys in general would be surprised that she knew more about cars than them, they'd soon accept it, but most the girls she knew or met wouldn't. It was never clear why not, but they just didn't. Computers aren't much different. (Why aren't there more women in auto sports? Because there aren't many twelve year old girls doing Karting and rebuilding engines. Unfortunately, there is a lot of discrimination at that age, though mostly from mothers [most the dads I know love when their girls to do car things with them], but it's also because twelve year old girls in general just aren't that interested in cars.)
Joe Woodbury wrote:
it's also because twelve year old girls in general just aren't that interested in cars.
I have an 8 year old that is. Does that count?
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
it's also because twelve year old girls in general just aren't that interested in cars.
I have an 8 year old that is. Does that count?
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I have an 8 year old that is. Does that count?
So did I, but after the mechanics classes (that cost me a bundle in tools that my daughter still has) she went to cosmetology school and is now a very good hair stylist (and I do get a lifetime of free haircuts, but would have preferred a life time of free car repairs.) I've pushed her to open a car repair / salon but that hasn't gone anywhere. Put your daughter in Go Karts, dad! There's got to be some girl out there who will eventually actually win races (instead of just getting lots of hype)! (Can she whine well? If so, she'd be perfect for F1 :) )