Walk a Mile in my Shoes
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I was there a year and then I got transferred to the States. I loved living in Marken - I rented an old Dutch house on a terup (sp?) and cycled everywhere. The neighbours were extremely friendly. :)
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
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I don't really have a point on my own account as I can't say that I have experienced much discrimination myself and I've worked in many different countries (including Holland) as a software professional. What I do notice is that so few women appear to be here on CP. In the industry in general the proportion is supposedly 10% but I can't see many women here. :((
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
AnnieMacD wrote:
What I do notice is that so few women appear to be here on CP. In the industry in general the proportion is supposedly 10% but I can't see many women here.
Oh we're here all right. Have you met the Trollslayer yet? :) FWIW few developers (maybe one in 20, if that) bother posting in online forums. Certainly just about every place I've been I've been the only dev who did so, and with so few devs being female anyway that means the number who appear in forums such as this one appears to be disproportionately low.
Anna :rose: Tech Blog | Visual Lint "Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
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This was in the CP Newsletter today so most of you will have seen it. Women in Technology[^]
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
I've worked with several women developers. One thing I've observed is that the group is small enough that when you have the inevitable loser, she can't get lost in the crowd like the loser male programmers often can. Another observation is that most good computer programmers I know already had a deep interest in computers and/or electronics in high school. I don't know if women are interested at the same rate, but the ones that are get a lot of peer pressure from other girls (and some guys, but mostly girls) to be interested in something else. My daughter, now 22, noticed this when she took several auto mechanics classes in high school. Besides learning that she could get the guys to do anything for her (something she's been gifted at since she was an hour old), she found that while guys in general would be surprised that she knew more about cars than them, they'd soon accept it, but most the girls she knew or met wouldn't. It was never clear why not, but they just didn't. Computers aren't much different. (Why aren't there more women in auto sports? Because there aren't many twelve year old girls doing Karting and rebuilding engines. Unfortunately, there is a lot of discrimination at that age, though mostly from mothers [most the dads I know love when their girls to do car things with them], but it's also because twelve year old girls in general just aren't that interested in cars.)
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AnnieMacD wrote:
What I do notice is that so few women appear to be here on CP. In the industry in general the proportion is supposedly 10% but I can't see many women here.
Oh we're here all right. Have you met the Trollslayer yet? :) FWIW few developers (maybe one in 20, if that) bother posting in online forums. Certainly just about every place I've been I've been the only dev who did so, and with so few devs being female anyway that means the number who appear in forums such as this one appears to be disproportionately low.
Anna :rose: Tech Blog | Visual Lint "Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
Get back to your Vegas sandbox Engelbert. ;P
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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I've worked with several women developers. One thing I've observed is that the group is small enough that when you have the inevitable loser, she can't get lost in the crowd like the loser male programmers often can. Another observation is that most good computer programmers I know already had a deep interest in computers and/or electronics in high school. I don't know if women are interested at the same rate, but the ones that are get a lot of peer pressure from other girls (and some guys, but mostly girls) to be interested in something else. My daughter, now 22, noticed this when she took several auto mechanics classes in high school. Besides learning that she could get the guys to do anything for her (something she's been gifted at since she was an hour old), she found that while guys in general would be surprised that she knew more about cars than them, they'd soon accept it, but most the girls she knew or met wouldn't. It was never clear why not, but they just didn't. Computers aren't much different. (Why aren't there more women in auto sports? Because there aren't many twelve year old girls doing Karting and rebuilding engines. Unfortunately, there is a lot of discrimination at that age, though mostly from mothers [most the dads I know love when their girls to do car things with them], but it's also because twelve year old girls in general just aren't that interested in cars.)
Joe Woodbury wrote:
it's also because twelve year old girls in general just aren't that interested in cars.
I have an 8 year old that is. Does that count?
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
it's also because twelve year old girls in general just aren't that interested in cars.
I have an 8 year old that is. Does that count?
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I have an 8 year old that is. Does that count?
So did I, but after the mechanics classes (that cost me a bundle in tools that my daughter still has) she went to cosmetology school and is now a very good hair stylist (and I do get a lifetime of free haircuts, but would have preferred a life time of free car repairs.) I've pushed her to open a car repair / salon but that hasn't gone anywhere. Put your daughter in Go Karts, dad! There's got to be some girl out there who will eventually actually win races (instead of just getting lots of hype)! (Can she whine well? If so, she'd be perfect for F1 :) )
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I don't really have a point on my own account as I can't say that I have experienced much discrimination myself and I've worked in many different countries (including Holland) as a software professional. What I do notice is that so few women appear to be here on CP. In the industry in general the proportion is supposedly 10% but I can't see many women here. :((
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
If you think percentages, the few of us you see might be accurate. What is the percentage of CP members that actually post? Very very small if you judge by the number of unique names (couple of hundred, maybe) in the lounge recently versus that 7million member. 10% of that very small number is the 10's and I can think of about 10 females off the top of my head. Re that 10% number. I've never worked in a place where 10% of the software developers were women in the 24 years of my working life. It's always been about 3%. However, I think that is due to the domains where I've worked rather than the 10% being wrong. With the exception of my first job (back in '86 when female software types were very rare), I've always worked in industries where the software works hand-in-circuit with the hardware in the system. Try the EE field for a male-dominated field!! In contrast, one of my female SW cronies, who didn't like working so close to the hardware, changed jobs to a "real" software shop, and her percentage at her place is much closer to that 10% number. It probably also makes a difference that, despite years of trying to equalize the distribution of domestic duties, women still do the big majority of that work which severely cuts down on their leisure time to indulge in things like CP participation. Me, I've got my husband well-trained so I have time :laugh: Judy
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss. Lazarus Long, "Time Enough For Love" by Robert A. Heinlein
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You're right. Elaine is really a MMA trucker called Harold. The good Anna Jayne is actually Englebert Humperdink, and Chris' disproportionate number of lady team members are all Transformers. Let's not forget Ali P - she's really Dalek Dave. On the other side, JSOP is really Cindy Crawford.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
You forgot the lovely Corinna.
Cheers, विक्रम (Got my troika of CCCs!) Need sig - urgentz!!!
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You forgot the lovely Corinna.
Cheers, विक्रम (Got my troika of CCCs!) Need sig - urgentz!!!
Damn. :doh:
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Get back to your Vegas sandbox Engelbert. ;P
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
;P ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P
Anna :rose: Tech Blog | Visual Lint "Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
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I am a big fan of more women in software development but there has to be more to the lack of women than subtle discrimination. The handful of women I have met that consider themselves programmers were not overly competent by any measure and all but one bore a chip on her shoulder that suggested, "No man will help me". All in all software development is taught via mentorship and camaraderie. If you want more good female developers then more women will have to be open to the concept that receiving help from a developer who just so happens to be a man is not discrimination or gender bias but the way that every man learned how to master the craft.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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I've said this before - my wife used to be a developer. She went to a company where she was treated like shit by some dipshit bumcuddler who was less qualified and less experienced than she was, yet he considered that suitable work for her was typing up letters. He and I, how shall I put it, had a full and frank exchange on a night out one night where he discovered that it's not wise to get the back up of the husband, especially when he used to do Muay Thai.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
Respectfully, one experience does not quantify a rational conclusion.
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This was in the CP Newsletter today so most of you will have seen it. Women in Technology[^]
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
It's my belief that it all boils down to genetics, as it accurately does for females in sports. While there are exceptions for every rule, the stereotypical nature of men and women are not without merit, and with a good result. Typically men are not good at many things that, generally, women are. That said, riding the discrimination bandwagon is just as ignorant as are the remaining minority of folks who contrbute to it. There's my two cents, and all IMHO. Let me stress "opinion". :-D
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You're right. Elaine is really a MMA trucker called Harold. The good Anna Jayne is actually Englebert Humperdink, and Chris' disproportionate number of lady team members are all Transformers. Let's not forget Ali P - she's really Dalek Dave. On the other side, JSOP is really Cindy Crawford.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
On the other side, JSOP is really Cindy Crawford.
If only I'd got someone to take a photo when we had dinner a couple of months ago... (Me & JSOP, not Me & Cindy!) Iain.
I am one of "those foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs". Yay me!
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I've worked with several women developers. One thing I've observed is that the group is small enough that when you have the inevitable loser, she can't get lost in the crowd like the loser male programmers often can. Another observation is that most good computer programmers I know already had a deep interest in computers and/or electronics in high school. I don't know if women are interested at the same rate, but the ones that are get a lot of peer pressure from other girls (and some guys, but mostly girls) to be interested in something else. My daughter, now 22, noticed this when she took several auto mechanics classes in high school. Besides learning that she could get the guys to do anything for her (something she's been gifted at since she was an hour old), she found that while guys in general would be surprised that she knew more about cars than them, they'd soon accept it, but most the girls she knew or met wouldn't. It was never clear why not, but they just didn't. Computers aren't much different. (Why aren't there more women in auto sports? Because there aren't many twelve year old girls doing Karting and rebuilding engines. Unfortunately, there is a lot of discrimination at that age, though mostly from mothers [most the dads I know love when their girls to do car things with them], but it's also because twelve year old girls in general just aren't that interested in cars.)
VERY GOOD POINT!!! Funny how women who gripe about discrimination never mention discrimination from other women. They just assume that those women have been beaten down by the male discrimination machine. Nearly ten years ago I saw a survey where men and women were given a list of jobs and asked what they would expect to earn in those jobs. Women had lower expectations across the board.
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Respectfully, one experience does not quantify a rational conclusion.
Did I say there was any conclusion in there? I just retold personal experience.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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The inertia of the male "geek-dom" (nerd, computer sciences, engineering, ...) makes it hard for women to get on board.
Watched code never compiles.
Maximilien wrote:
The inertia of the male "geek-dom" (nerd, computer sciences, engineering, ...) makes it hard for women to get on board.
Well said. When I walk around the labs of the computing building in my uni, the male competitive geekery theme is quite aggressive (think of a room with 20 or 30 Comic Book Shop Guys all trying to outshout each other) and perhaps a factor that drives away women to some degree. In my compsci undergrad, there were about 100 students in second year, four of which were female - I was very disturbed by that extremely low number.
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This was in the CP Newsletter today so most of you will have seen it. Women in Technology[^]
It’s not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it’s because we do not dare that things are difficult. ~Seneca
I sent the article to my daughter - she found it rather insightful. She is in her 3rd year in University studying Physics & Mathematics and had experienced some of the same comments and insinuations that the article's author mentioned. "You're only in the program because you're a girl"... she's on a full-ride merit-based scholarship. The push by the university to get women in the techie degrees is independent of her scholarship process. My daughter received several science and math awards in high school - some at the local level, one at the state level, and is now a paid tutor for 2nd year mathematics students at the university. She's good at math, likes to solve problems, good at working in groups, and a natural leader. Her professors and employers realize her potential - her fellow students [the males] can often be twits. Encouraging "those who can" "to do" is important for any profession... I don't want my doctor, auto mechanic, or roofer to be some affirmatively-promoted marginal student. Changing any [insert-non-merit-based-group-identifier-here]-dominated profession or group to accept the best-qualified candidates (skills, skills, skills), as stated in the article, seems to be the hightest hurdle. And, Great Article, thanks for posting! :-D
-Bob