Old Windows
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Perhaps he just doesn't want to bother with remembering keystroke combinations to perform UI interactions for which he can use the mouse. If he didn't know how the UI worked, he wouldn't know to go to the File menu to find Save. I don't normally use Ctrl-S to save files because it's my habit to click the "Save" toolbar button; however, I nearly always use Ctrl-C/Ctrl-X/Ctrl-V for copy/cut/paste operations, again because that's the habit I've developed. Keyboard shortcuts are only faster once they become second nature.
I think personally part of it is a shift over time on from primarily using key combinations ( i know in the 90's that was all I really used to play Civ), to more accurate Mice, which have really been driving the AI design, have you ever tried to Surf the web using just a keyboard...? And I would argue this will happen again with touch pads/devices, which don't have an OnMouseOver capability! As new technologies come out younger generations adopt them first and as they mature those technologies "mature" with them, until they come up with a different way of doing it.. eventually the Neural interface will eclipse touch, mouse and keyboard. :doh: yet during that transition people will talk about how it doesn't feel like they are "working" because they don't have that tactile experience (case in point Fighter jet control sticks, which are sensitive enough to handle all user input over a couple square inches, but which needed to be more mobile so that pilots could feel that they were having an impact on the jet :omg: ) --
Marc A. Brown wrote:
doesn't want to bother with remembering keystroke combinations to perform UI interactions for which he can use the mouse
On this note, there is no (at least none that I'm aware) Actual Standard for how keystroke combinations should function in a program... if there were then maybe this would be more widely adopted, but unless your a power user of a particular app why bother remembering hundreds of one to many mappings of Ctrl-7? {arbitrary example}:confused:
I'd blame it on the Brain farts.. But let's be honest, it really is more like a Methane factory between my ears some days then it is anything else... -"The conversations he was having with himself were becoming ominous."-.. On the radio...
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OK, but it is fairly late now, so, please, take your cup of warm milk and
gotobed. --Carlo The Grandpa. :)If the Lord God Almighty had consulted me before embarking upon the Creation, I would have recommended something simpler. -- Alfonso the Wise, 13th Century King of Castile.
This is going on my arrogant assumptions. You may have a superb reason why I'm completely wrong. -- Iain Clarke
[My articles]Don't start that one again Please I'm begging you..... :wtf:
I'd blame it on the Brain farts.. But let's be honest, it really is more like a Methane factory between my ears some days then it is anything else... -"The conversations he was having with himself were becoming ominous."-.. On the radio...
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People have different priorities when it come to dealing with their jobs. a good programmer is not necessarily a power-user.
Watched code never compiles.
Indeed. From the very beginning I always was very much more interested in writing code. Typing mile-long command lines always annoyed me and I also don't enjoy remembering a billion similar keyboard shortcuts for all kinds of applications. It's the menu's job to offer me all possible options at any given time.
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
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I use Alt + F, S so I must be an old fart for using the File Menu. To be honest I must sound like Luddite but I think there are way too many short-cuts. I am a sloppy typist and there is nothing I hate more than accidentally hitting some obscure key combination that completely alters my current workspace.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Exactly, and to prove that we are old fashioned, I would also like to remark that user interfaces once were supposed to be intuitive with, if possible, one clear and apparent way of doing something.
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
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Perhaps he just doesn't want to bother with remembering keystroke combinations to perform UI interactions for which he can use the mouse. If he didn't know how the UI worked, he wouldn't know to go to the File menu to find Save. I don't normally use Ctrl-S to save files because it's my habit to click the "Save" toolbar button; however, I nearly always use Ctrl-C/Ctrl-X/Ctrl-V for copy/cut/paste operations, again because that's the habit I've developed. Keyboard shortcuts are only faster once they become second nature.
As an old phart, I'll throw in the suggestion that maybe he (like me) knows too many UIs and after a while you just go with what works, rather than memorizing the bazillion keystroke combinations and then hoping your memory is perfect and you've correctly identified the interface it is relevant for. Let's see how it looks after you've been programming for 35+ years...
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
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Hold your tongue, Grasshopper. Command-line-fu can be most powerful, and is a vanishing art.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary Wheeler wrote:
Command-line-fu can be most powerful
Having programmed for 20 years, I think I know that... :)
Gary Wheeler wrote:
is a vanishing art
That was exactly why I was so surprised, that and (pardon my French) the fact that it was a lady (and a non-programming one at that) ;P
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Easy, before you was born, we group up with various computer systems, X Windows Windows 3.0 Windows 3.1 Windows 3.1 wfw Windows NT 3.5 Windows NT 4.0 These 'windowed' systems behaved slightly different from today, as the saying goes 'old habits die hard'.
Two heads are better than one.
Don't forget; Windows Windows 2 Windows 286 Windows 386 ... oops, sorry, please do forget them
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"This is just like Old Windows!" was what one of my senior programmers had to say when i tried showing him some stuff on Unix. He was of course talking about the Command Prompt/DOS. He is also one of those who still goes to the 'File' menu, searches for 'Save' instead of 'Ctrl + S'. I've met quite a few people who are good programmers but still seem like grandpas when dealing with the Computer. How is that possible? :omg:
I are n00b.
I create shortcuts for the menus in my applications but don't use them myself
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Don't forget; Windows Windows 2 Windows 286 Windows 386 ... oops, sorry, please do forget them
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"This is just like Old Windows!" was what one of my senior programmers had to say when i tried showing him some stuff on Unix. He was of course talking about the Command Prompt/DOS. He is also one of those who still goes to the 'File' menu, searches for 'Save' instead of 'Ctrl + S'. I've met quite a few people who are good programmers but still seem like grandpas when dealing with the Computer. How is that possible? :omg:
I are n00b.
File-Save = Ctrl-S ... That's not how it is done - you'd need one of those new-fangled keyboard things for that. The correct way to save a file is: You get a cardboard box, put your punched cards / paper tape in it, and store it in the loft. And how is Old Windows like Unix? Unix didn't have any windowing - it was all command line, just like other real Operating Systems, e.g. RSX, CP/M, George 3, DOS/VSE, etc.
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I agree with you. I've seen some eye-gougingly horrible UI's (both commercial and in-house) produced by people who obviously don't get it. But how does that relate to the original post? It's possible (perhaps even probable!) that I'm just impossibly dense today but I fail to see how a guy not using certain accelerators means that he doesn't understand the UI. Thanks, by the way, for distracting me from work! I owe you one! :-D
HERE HERE... Back to work I go...
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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Programmers shouldn't build UIs.
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon
Judah HimangoRubbish
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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No not at all wfw has a good little O/S before I moved to NT.
Two heads are better than one.
Yeah - WFW (Windows for Workgroups) run on todays hardware would outperform anything due to lack of NEW JACKS bloating everything...
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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Exactly, and to prove that we are old fashioned, I would also like to remark that user interfaces once were supposed to be intuitive with, if possible, one clear and apparent way of doing something.
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
And consistent; so from one application to the next - one didn't have to relearn everything... basic things just work the same... like ALT+F, followed by "S" ... Cntl+S is fine too... who starting complaining about this again? Nevermind... opinionated new jack.
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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SinghUlarity... wrote:
How is that possible?
If it worked in 1960, and it still works now, why change? ;P
Will Rogers never met me.
HERE HERE! Ain't borke - don't fix it - innovate something else! All these new jacks say never rewrite the wheel... yet - they seem to come up with "new" things all the time that do exactly the same thing I've been doing for 28 years now... just more bloated.
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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For future devices, there will not be any shortcuts. They are all graphic interfaces.
TOMZ_KV
Yup - progress - everything you do takes longer! Love that!
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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File-Save = Ctrl-S ... That's not how it is done - you'd need one of those new-fangled keyboard things for that. The correct way to save a file is: You get a cardboard box, put your punched cards / paper tape in it, and store it in the loft. And how is Old Windows like Unix? Unix didn't have any windowing - it was all command line, just like other real Operating Systems, e.g. RSX, CP/M, George 3, DOS/VSE, etc.
Oh sir, you forget.. there was windowing... it just was done in ascii or frame looking vt100 graphics :) Worked a hell of a lot faster than a GUI for sure though! Oh I miss the speed of HP-UX and built in OS level version control of VMS. Ahhh... --Jason
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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Programmers shouldn't build UIs.
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon
Judah HimangoBullfeathers!!! You cannot seriously make such a blanket statement. Sure, there are programmers who cannot build a good UI. There are also programmers who cannot program their way out of a paper bag! But there are many, myself among them, who are talented in many areas, including UI design. BTW, who do you think writes all the code that actually makes the UI actually do what it's supposed to do?
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Considering the post before you was: "Programmers shouldn't build UIs.", I think you can safely ignore most of this thread. Just a flame war waiting to happen. Managers that are worth their salt don't care about how you press/click/type 'save' as long as the job gets done. The occasional person who uses the menus are maybe a good reminder that not every one, heck not even all developers, think about achieving the same thing in the same way. For us it's maybe a personal choice, but I'm sure there are lots of people out there that are completely unaware of keyboard shortcuts.
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Perhaps he just doesn't want to bother with remembering keystroke combinations to perform UI interactions for which he can use the mouse. If he didn't know how the UI worked, he wouldn't know to go to the File menu to find Save. I don't normally use Ctrl-S to save files because it's my habit to click the "Save" toolbar button; however, I nearly always use Ctrl-C/Ctrl-X/Ctrl-V for copy/cut/paste operations, again because that's the habit I've developed. Keyboard shortcuts are only faster once they become second nature.
I'm exactly the same. Some shortcuts I use. Most of the time I just use the menu. I make maps in Hammer for Valve games and every time I see the list of 100+ keyboard shortcuts I laugh. To use those things efficiently you have to memorize them and I've always been one to keep on doing the fun stuff like coding and editing rather than stop to learn them. My first OS was MSDOS 1.0 in '83 and I too said, 'Wow, this is just like that old stuff I used to use' when I first saw Unix in '96.