Is science just a new religion ?
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Science requires proof and nothing else but questions.
Where does matter come from? Why do oppositely charged electrical matter attract and those that are the same repel? Where did the Big Bang come from? The absolute basis of science does require a leap of faith. Every science has certain givens that we assume to be true and derive most everything else from those. Try proving the 5th postulate.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Asking if science is like religion is like asking 'Why is a mouse when it spins'.
Schrödinger's cat was chasing it. Assuming it's a what, not a why. Otherwise, that's like a scientist asking why is light smelly?
Dalek Dave wrote:
Science is the antithesis of religion, science requires intelligence and learning to succeed, religion requires stupidity, fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.
Although I hate religion and find it a waste of time, I disagree with this. Science and religion both require faith that what you're doing is right. The only difference between them is that science finds a potential proof or disproof after a certain period of time (there are exceptions like the 5th postulate), whereas religion only deals with the Supreme Being and existence (which IMO will never be answered, much less proven), even if their interpretation is completely flawed.
Spoken like someone who has never studied science. As a physicist I am rarely asked anything, but here goes... Matter comes in and out of existance at all times. it is not matter in the sense you understand it to be, merely a quantum possibility that oscillates on a probabity brane (String Theory), and at this micro level there is nothing touchable, merely interactable. This matter comes in many flavours, from thr leptonic via the mesonic to the baryonic and then into what is merely the atomic level. Even then, it is not really matter as you would understand, but a set of charges and forces, Weak, Strong, Electromagnetic and Gravity. Oddly, the stongest of these is the Weak force, and the weakest is gravity, although gravity binds the whole universe together. But gravity exists across all 11 dimensions, not just the 4 that we easily comprehend. (Brane Theory). One we get to the macro level we still cannot touch anything, for most of everything is nothing. When you handle a ball or a door or a puppy, you are not touching any part of that ball, door or puppy, merely the electromagnetic forces within your body are hitting the field resistance of the ball etc. As for where big bang came from is pointless as there was no time before big bang. Time was created then. It may not have been the first or only big bang, and there are probably billions of universes, why not, physics abhors a vacuum. Religion is clearly preposterous as it took a mind to create it, and our minds are shaped by our evolutionary and genetic inheritance, whereas physics works whether we are watching or not. Hell, they even leave gravity switched on at the weekend! This is why religion is always doomed to fail, because eventually we all accept that what the stupid bastards are preaching is wrong.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
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Er...No! Religion requires belief and unquestioning loyalty. Science requires proof and nothing else but questions. Asking if science is like religion is like asking 'Why is a mouse when it spins'. Meaningless and a waste of time. Science is the antithesis of religion, science requires intelligence and learning to succeed, religion requires stupidity, fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
Well... I'm going to take a very unpopular opinion on these boards... I'm biting only because I have seen too much slamming lately :(( I will not generically defend religion, roman catholicism, or any other niche you want to slam, but just my own faith in God the Father, identified by Jesus Christ, and who will guide us today as the Holy Spirit.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Religion requires belief and unquestioning loyalty.
Quite the opposite. God requires you 100%. This is your intellect, emotions, physical service, everything about you. You can claim belief without intellect, but it is false. To believe, your mind is at work. You must chase down every doubt you have in order for faith to grow into belief. Otherwise, your faith will fail and your belief will not exist. Claiming belief without intellectual and emotional investment is like claiming to work by showing up physically to your desk, but not thinking about a single line of code.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Science requires proof and nothing else but questions.
Scientific theories have changed too many times to believe that 'proof' is absolute truth.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Science is the antithesis of religion, science requires intelligence and learning to succeed, religion requires stupidity, fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.
You're confusing religion with political movements that falsely manipulate people who have foolishly separated their intellect from their beliefs. You cannot pigeon hole a religion by a liar who claims to be of it, but does not live it.
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It does if you've disproved centripetal force.
I'm not a stalker, I just know things. Oh by the way, you're out of milk.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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Spoken like someone who has never studied science. As a physicist I am rarely asked anything, but here goes... Matter comes in and out of existance at all times. it is not matter in the sense you understand it to be, merely a quantum possibility that oscillates on a probabity brane (String Theory), and at this micro level there is nothing touchable, merely interactable. This matter comes in many flavours, from thr leptonic via the mesonic to the baryonic and then into what is merely the atomic level. Even then, it is not really matter as you would understand, but a set of charges and forces, Weak, Strong, Electromagnetic and Gravity. Oddly, the stongest of these is the Weak force, and the weakest is gravity, although gravity binds the whole universe together. But gravity exists across all 11 dimensions, not just the 4 that we easily comprehend. (Brane Theory). One we get to the macro level we still cannot touch anything, for most of everything is nothing. When you handle a ball or a door or a puppy, you are not touching any part of that ball, door or puppy, merely the electromagnetic forces within your body are hitting the field resistance of the ball etc. As for where big bang came from is pointless as there was no time before big bang. Time was created then. It may not have been the first or only big bang, and there are probably billions of universes, why not, physics abhors a vacuum. Religion is clearly preposterous as it took a mind to create it, and our minds are shaped by our evolutionary and genetic inheritance, whereas physics works whether we are watching or not. Hell, they even leave gravity switched on at the weekend! This is why religion is always doomed to fail, because eventually we all accept that what the stupid bastards are preaching is wrong.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
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Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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So... How did god come to be? Not knowing an answer is where science and religion differ. Religion claims to "know" that god just always was and is, etc... Science is honest within itself and says. "I'm not sure, but dagnabbit, I'm going to dig deep and try to find out through observation and experimentation"
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Well... I'm going to take a very unpopular opinion on these boards... I'm biting only because I have seen too much slamming lately :(( I will not generically defend religion, roman catholicism, or any other niche you want to slam, but just my own faith in God the Father, identified by Jesus Christ, and who will guide us today as the Holy Spirit.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Religion requires belief and unquestioning loyalty.
Quite the opposite. God requires you 100%. This is your intellect, emotions, physical service, everything about you. You can claim belief without intellect, but it is false. To believe, your mind is at work. You must chase down every doubt you have in order for faith to grow into belief. Otherwise, your faith will fail and your belief will not exist. Claiming belief without intellectual and emotional investment is like claiming to work by showing up physically to your desk, but not thinking about a single line of code.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Science requires proof and nothing else but questions.
Scientific theories have changed too many times to believe that 'proof' is absolute truth.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Science is the antithesis of religion, science requires intelligence and learning to succeed, religion requires stupidity, fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.
You're confusing religion with political movements that falsely manipulate people who have foolishly separated their intellect from their beliefs. You cannot pigeon hole a religion by a liar who claims to be of it, but does not live it.
Pualee wrote:
Scientific theories have changed too many times to believe that 'proof' is absolute truth.
I'm not sure if you're using this as a criticism of science, but I have seen many who do. People that believe this is the great failing of science do not realize it is proper science's greatest strength, and exactly why it is not a religion.
He said, "Boy I'm just old and lonely, But thank you for your concern, Here's wishing you a Happy New Year." I wished him one back in return.
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Well... I'm going to take a very unpopular opinion on these boards... I'm biting only because I have seen too much slamming lately :(( I will not generically defend religion, roman catholicism, or any other niche you want to slam, but just my own faith in God the Father, identified by Jesus Christ, and who will guide us today as the Holy Spirit.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Religion requires belief and unquestioning loyalty.
Quite the opposite. God requires you 100%. This is your intellect, emotions, physical service, everything about you. You can claim belief without intellect, but it is false. To believe, your mind is at work. You must chase down every doubt you have in order for faith to grow into belief. Otherwise, your faith will fail and your belief will not exist. Claiming belief without intellectual and emotional investment is like claiming to work by showing up physically to your desk, but not thinking about a single line of code.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Science requires proof and nothing else but questions.
Scientific theories have changed too many times to believe that 'proof' is absolute truth.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Science is the antithesis of religion, science requires intelligence and learning to succeed, religion requires stupidity, fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.
You're confusing religion with political movements that falsely manipulate people who have foolishly separated their intellect from their beliefs. You cannot pigeon hole a religion by a liar who claims to be of it, but does not live it.
Pualee wrote:
This is your intellect, emotions, physical service, everything about you. You can claim belief without intellect, but it is false.
Really... Is that why the bible tells us that we need to come to him(god) as unquestioning, innocent, ignorant little children?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Pualee wrote:
This is your intellect, emotions, physical service, everything about you. You can claim belief without intellect, but it is false.
Really... Is that why the bible tells us that we need to come to him(god) as unquestioning, innocent, ignorant little children?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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The theory of gravity is just a theory. TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!
Don't fall for the lies...
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Is for ladies by ladies a favourite site of yours?
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Only in a voyeuristic sense.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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Pualee wrote:
Scientific theories have changed too many times to believe that 'proof' is absolute truth.
I'm not sure if you're using this as a criticism of science, but I have seen many who do. People that believe this is the great failing of science do not realize it is proper science's greatest strength, and exactly why it is not a religion.
He said, "Boy I'm just old and lonely, But thank you for your concern, Here's wishing you a Happy New Year." I wished him one back in return.
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Spoken like someone who has never studied science. As a physicist I am rarely asked anything, but here goes... Matter comes in and out of existance at all times. it is not matter in the sense you understand it to be, merely a quantum possibility that oscillates on a probabity brane (String Theory), and at this micro level there is nothing touchable, merely interactable. This matter comes in many flavours, from thr leptonic via the mesonic to the baryonic and then into what is merely the atomic level. Even then, it is not really matter as you would understand, but a set of charges and forces, Weak, Strong, Electromagnetic and Gravity. Oddly, the stongest of these is the Weak force, and the weakest is gravity, although gravity binds the whole universe together. But gravity exists across all 11 dimensions, not just the 4 that we easily comprehend. (Brane Theory). One we get to the macro level we still cannot touch anything, for most of everything is nothing. When you handle a ball or a door or a puppy, you are not touching any part of that ball, door or puppy, merely the electromagnetic forces within your body are hitting the field resistance of the ball etc. As for where big bang came from is pointless as there was no time before big bang. Time was created then. It may not have been the first or only big bang, and there are probably billions of universes, why not, physics abhors a vacuum. Religion is clearly preposterous as it took a mind to create it, and our minds are shaped by our evolutionary and genetic inheritance, whereas physics works whether we are watching or not. Hell, they even leave gravity switched on at the weekend! This is why religion is always doomed to fail, because eventually we all accept that what the stupid bastards are preaching is wrong.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
Oh goody, a discussion/argument/debate. :) I am familiar with most of what you said, but here goes.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Matter comes in and out of existance at all times.
Is this fact or our current best understanding of things? Where is this matter coming from? [I doubt this will ever be proven.]Dalek Dave wrote:
merely a quantum possibility that oscillates on a probabity brane (String Theory), and at this micro level there is nothing touchable, merely interactable.
WTH is a quantum possibility? Something either is or isn't. At this micro-level, things cannot be touched because we have humongous fingers. But if it has a microscopic unit of measurement, then it exists.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Even then, it is not really matter as you would understand, but a set of charges and forces, Weak, Strong, Electromagnetic and Gravity.
I've heard of those. I actually took a few physics classes, so I accept those.
Dalek Dave wrote:
But gravity exists across all 11 dimensions, not just the 4 that we easily comprehend. (Brane Theory).
In law, this is hearsay. In religion, heresy. It's just a theory. For all we know, it could be just the ones we know or a million. The universal model is continuously changing based on our observations and what we think best supports what we see or can't see. The proof is not in the pudding.
Dalek Dave wrote:
One we get to the macro level we still cannot touch anything, for most of everything is nothing.
You and I disagree on what nothing is. Nothing is not emptiness IMO. Nothing is
Dalek Dave wrote:
When you handle a ball or a door or a puppy, you are not touching any part of that ball, door or puppy, merely the electromagnetic forces within your body are hitting the field resistance of the ball etc.
True. Otherwise, you have atoms touching and things can move from one body to the next.
Dalek Dave wrote:
As for where big bang came from is pointless as there was no time before big bang. Time was created then. It may not have been the first or only big bang, and there are probably billions of universes, why not, physics abhors a vacuum.
The time before the Big Bang is not pointless. You have no explanation for
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So... How did god come to be? Not knowing an answer is where science and religion differ. Religion claims to "know" that god just always was and is, etc... Science is honest within itself and says. "I'm not sure, but dagnabbit, I'm going to dig deep and try to find out through observation and experimentation"
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
God is the catch-all for the unanswerable.
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So... How did god come to be? Not knowing an answer is where science and religion differ. Religion claims to "know" that god just always was and is, etc... Science is honest within itself and says. "I'm not sure, but dagnabbit, I'm going to dig deep and try to find out through observation and experimentation"
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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If you could absolutely identify either how gravity came to exist... or how God came to exist... then I would celebrate humanism and slam religion with the rest of you. As it is, both questions point me in the same direction, where is the creator?
A catch all answer is a cop-out. The whole point to science is to say, "We don't know something, so we'll try to figure it out." The whole point to religion is to say, "It just is that way." I always find it amusing that religious people always say that if you can prove that you are right, they'll believe you, but will never reciprocate when the question is posed to them.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Spoken like someone who has never studied science. As a physicist I am rarely asked anything, but here goes... Matter comes in and out of existance at all times. it is not matter in the sense you understand it to be, merely a quantum possibility that oscillates on a probabity brane (String Theory), and at this micro level there is nothing touchable, merely interactable. This matter comes in many flavours, from thr leptonic via the mesonic to the baryonic and then into what is merely the atomic level. Even then, it is not really matter as you would understand, but a set of charges and forces, Weak, Strong, Electromagnetic and Gravity. Oddly, the stongest of these is the Weak force, and the weakest is gravity, although gravity binds the whole universe together. But gravity exists across all 11 dimensions, not just the 4 that we easily comprehend. (Brane Theory). One we get to the macro level we still cannot touch anything, for most of everything is nothing. When you handle a ball or a door or a puppy, you are not touching any part of that ball, door or puppy, merely the electromagnetic forces within your body are hitting the field resistance of the ball etc. As for where big bang came from is pointless as there was no time before big bang. Time was created then. It may not have been the first or only big bang, and there are probably billions of universes, why not, physics abhors a vacuum. Religion is clearly preposterous as it took a mind to create it, and our minds are shaped by our evolutionary and genetic inheritance, whereas physics works whether we are watching or not. Hell, they even leave gravity switched on at the weekend! This is why religion is always doomed to fail, because eventually we all accept that what the stupid bastards are preaching is wrong.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
String Theory
I'm not keen on string theory as it hasn't produced any verifiable predictions, and it requires so many degrees of freedom (dimensions) that you could make its equations look like anything.
Dalek Dave wrote:
gravity exists across all 11 dimensions
That's just a stab in the dark too, from Brane Theory. Totally unverified to date. I'm not saying that they are definitely wrong, just that they are far from proven.
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It was a f'in accident. We're supposed to be weightless.
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Oh goody, a discussion/argument/debate. :) I am familiar with most of what you said, but here goes.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Matter comes in and out of existance at all times.
Is this fact or our current best understanding of things? Where is this matter coming from? [I doubt this will ever be proven.]Dalek Dave wrote:
merely a quantum possibility that oscillates on a probabity brane (String Theory), and at this micro level there is nothing touchable, merely interactable.
WTH is a quantum possibility? Something either is or isn't. At this micro-level, things cannot be touched because we have humongous fingers. But if it has a microscopic unit of measurement, then it exists.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Even then, it is not really matter as you would understand, but a set of charges and forces, Weak, Strong, Electromagnetic and Gravity.
I've heard of those. I actually took a few physics classes, so I accept those.
Dalek Dave wrote:
But gravity exists across all 11 dimensions, not just the 4 that we easily comprehend. (Brane Theory).
In law, this is hearsay. In religion, heresy. It's just a theory. For all we know, it could be just the ones we know or a million. The universal model is continuously changing based on our observations and what we think best supports what we see or can't see. The proof is not in the pudding.
Dalek Dave wrote:
One we get to the macro level we still cannot touch anything, for most of everything is nothing.
You and I disagree on what nothing is. Nothing is not emptiness IMO. Nothing is
Dalek Dave wrote:
When you handle a ball or a door or a puppy, you are not touching any part of that ball, door or puppy, merely the electromagnetic forces within your body are hitting the field resistance of the ball etc.
True. Otherwise, you have atoms touching and things can move from one body to the next.
Dalek Dave wrote:
As for where big bang came from is pointless as there was no time before big bang. Time was created then. It may not have been the first or only big bang, and there are probably billions of universes, why not, physics abhors a vacuum.
The time before the Big Bang is not pointless. You have no explanation for
You say, several times, 'In My Opinion' but what qualifications do you have to form an opinion? I think you should read some physics primers before I discuss further the points I have raised. Certainly about time, for time is not a constant, but a fluid measure. This is easily provable, for time is a function of mass, and mass is a function of velocity, so before big bang there was neither mass nor velocity, therefore there cannot have been time. (That time is fluid is one of the key cornerstones of Relativity and Satellite Navigation!) The point about science is that it is changing, all the time, because we are constantly learning. I look at religions, Muslim and Judaism are good examples, of where new knowledge is not absorbed. Jews and Muslims do not eat pork. Very wise, when you live in a desert and there is no refridgeration and where disease vectors where unknown or at least poorly understood. So not eating pork is wise. However, science has given us the Freezer and Disinfectant, so where is the problem? Ah, the problem lies in the fact that some old geezer wrote it in a book many centuries ago and the ignorance of religion cannot encompass the fact that humans are too clever by seven eighths!
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
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A catch all answer is a cop-out. The whole point to science is to say, "We don't know something, so we'll try to figure it out." The whole point to religion is to say, "It just is that way." I always find it amusing that religious people always say that if you can prove that you are right, they'll believe you, but will never reciprocate when the question is posed to them.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
Marcus Kramer wrote:
The whole point to science is to say, "We don't know something, so we'll try to figure it out." The whole point to religion is to say, "It just is that way."
Not quite. Religion is saying that the issue of the creator can never be proven. If so, everyone will stop believing in religion. Just make sure you send me a picture and drop it down in the chute. Way, way down.