Imposition of beliefs on others is just wrong
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Yeah, sure Ian. It clearly stated vegan breast milk is lethal, thats how her other kid isnt 6 years old or some such and living quite happily. :laugh: --edit-- Oh, let me write your next post for you: "her 13 year old child was born before they were vegans" :laugh: Yeah sure Ian. All those vegan women in the world, all having babies, and all of them dying before they reach the age of one. Funny no ones noticed this before isnt it. Perhaps you should publish your remaarkable findings Ian, I am syure the world wil be ever gratefull to you for saving so many babies from malnutrition and death.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
The vitamin deficiency of a vegan diet is well established, and those parents weren't taking the necessary supplements that would have made everything just fine. You're just trying to twist my argument into to something you can disprove. Now I'll say one last time... If you're going to argue that the breastfeeding itself, regardless of the vegan diet, was the problem, then present some proof. Otherwise, this is just another AGW debate, and I'm tired of hopelessly trying to drill logic into your head.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
The vitamin deficiency of a vegan diet is well established, and those parents weren't taking the necessary supplements that would have made everything just fine. You're just trying to twist my argument into to something you can disprove. Now I'll say one last time... If you're going to argue that the breastfeeding itself, regardless of the vegan diet, was the problem, then present some proof. Otherwise, this is just another AGW debate, and I'm tired of hopelessly trying to drill logic into your head.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
The vitamin deficiency of a vegan diet is well established, and those parents weren't taking the necessary supplements that would have made everything just fine.
Says Ian off the top of his head without any proof at all. :laugh:
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Now I'll say one last time... If you're going to argue that the breastfeeding itself, regardless of the vegan diet, was the problem, then present some proof. Otherwise, this is just another AGW debate, and I'm tired of hopelessly trying to drill logic into your head.
Why you pompous arogant twat. You talk of logic yet you ignore the fact that there are loads of vegans in the world with healthy kids. What killed the child in this article was neglect by malnourishment. That happens to babies across the world regardless of their parents particular diets.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
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This is what I stated:"Tell me, just how much meat do other primates eat? Chimpanzees, Gorillas, with their 'forward pointing eyes' and 'sharp teeth'? The answer is very rarely. And I am not sure they would feed any of the meat to their babies since what footage I have seen of them doing so seems to be a male only event." I then provided links that stated that they eat meat about 5% of the time, and that it is mostly males who do. I then pointed out that the report you linked to stated that a cooked vegan diet would have returned the child to normal growth and that it was the uncooked nature of the diet, not the fact that it was vegan that did the damage thus countering your assertion that a vegan diet is inherently bad. I dont know whether you are having trouble reading, understanding, or accepting when you are wrong, but for sure, its one of these.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
modified on Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:24 AM
Chimps do not eat meat rarely as you state, it forms a very large proportion of their diet. The difference between your original statement and the truth is this. Yes, gorillas are PREDOMINANTLY vegetarian, but they do eat very small amounts of meat, to SUPPLIMENT the diet with the necessary nutrients. Regardless of how small the amount of meat is in the proportion of the diet is irrelevant, the fact they eat even that small amount means they are omnivours. End of story. I also stated that a purely vegan diet is bad. You disagreed, claiming that vegans took suppliments. That is a completely different thing. They are then Vegans with suppliments, not Vegans without suppliments. Without the suppliments they would be in trouble. Please think about this, you are responding to something that I never said. I did not say that a vegan diet with suppliments was bad did I?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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At least this vegetarian group admits that humans are omnivores. http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm[^] Gorillas are the most vegetarian primates and they have the long intestines and bulging guts to prove it.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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If you are an adult human being who wishes to go against your genetic, evolutionary and biological heritage and become a herbivore, then fine. It is wrong to impose those insane beliefs upon others. What with our funny forward pointing eyes, our ripping canine teeth and our strange arrangement of intestines and enzymes, all there simply to kill and eat meat, there is a no reason to become bovine like and just eat those vegetables. However, when those beliefs lead to the death of a child because of malnutrition, then you have a problem Like these morons.[^] There are protiens and nutrients in meat that are vital for development of children. Nutrients that cannot be obtained from any other sources. When Vegiwankers abuse children like this and stop their brains form developing properly then they deserve all they get.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
IDK it isnt something to threaten nor harrass people over, when done correctly veganism nor vegetarinism possibly supervised by a nutritionist nor a psych pro As far as being imposed on I find it much more that people are smarter then what you give them credit for Needless to say I wont be posting moi ap on here, for now!!!
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Yeah, definitely. I was just pointing out where we were headed if we wanted our species to adapt to a more vegetarian diet. Big guts are sexy. X|
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Chimps do not eat meat rarely as you state, it forms a very large proportion of their diet. The difference between your original statement and the truth is this. Yes, gorillas are PREDOMINANTLY vegetarian, but they do eat very small amounts of meat, to SUPPLIMENT the diet with the necessary nutrients. Regardless of how small the amount of meat is in the proportion of the diet is irrelevant, the fact they eat even that small amount means they are omnivours. End of story. I also stated that a purely vegan diet is bad. You disagreed, claiming that vegans took suppliments. That is a completely different thing. They are then Vegans with suppliments, not Vegans without suppliments. Without the suppliments they would be in trouble. Please think about this, you are responding to something that I never said. I did not say that a vegan diet with suppliments was bad did I?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
I did not say that a vegan diet with suppliments was bad did I?
It is though. It just wears you down slowly.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Chimps do not eat meat rarely as you state, it forms a very large proportion of their diet. The difference between your original statement and the truth is this. Yes, gorillas are PREDOMINANTLY vegetarian, but they do eat very small amounts of meat, to SUPPLIMENT the diet with the necessary nutrients. Regardless of how small the amount of meat is in the proportion of the diet is irrelevant, the fact they eat even that small amount means they are omnivours. End of story. I also stated that a purely vegan diet is bad. You disagreed, claiming that vegans took suppliments. That is a completely different thing. They are then Vegans with suppliments, not Vegans without suppliments. Without the suppliments they would be in trouble. Please think about this, you are responding to something that I never said. I did not say that a vegan diet with suppliments was bad did I?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
Chimps do not eat meat rarely as you state, it forms a very large proportion of their diet.
Mammals such as monkeys, pigs and antelope are also eaten, particularly by males, but along with termites only account for about 5% of their diet. [^] Hmm, Zoo vs Dave, I wonder who I will believe...
Dalek Dave wrote:
You disagreed, claiming that vegans took suppliments.
Where?
Dalek Dave wrote:
I did not say that a vegan diet with suppliments was bad did I?
No, you said passing on your particular beliefs to your child, or imposing them on them is bad. What I objected to was you statement that it was their Veganism, a lifestyle you seem to find particular umbridge with, which killed the child. I merely pointed out that the child died of malnutrition which had nothing to do with the parents lifestyle choice. Yes, Vegans arent quite as big as meat eaters, the diet isnt quite as good, but its a long way form being deadly. I also pointed out that such statements as pointy teeth and forward looking eyes are no guaranteed indicator of being a meat eater. I might equally have used any other primate whose diet is entirely vegetarian like an Orangutang as well as a Gorilla. I also stated, quite rightly, that even though Chimpanzees do eat meat rarely, it is mostly the males that do, thus showing that an animal with an internal system extremely close to humans, with pointy teeth and foreward looking eyes, is perfectly capable of providing for its infant while eating a vegan diet. If you have a problem with Vegans, fair enough, but dont use the death of this child as a launch pad for your anti Vegan invective.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Chimps do not eat meat rarely as you state, it forms a very large proportion of their diet.
Mammals such as monkeys, pigs and antelope are also eaten, particularly by males, but along with termites only account for about 5% of their diet. [^] Hmm, Zoo vs Dave, I wonder who I will believe...
Dalek Dave wrote:
You disagreed, claiming that vegans took suppliments.
Where?
Dalek Dave wrote:
I did not say that a vegan diet with suppliments was bad did I?
No, you said passing on your particular beliefs to your child, or imposing them on them is bad. What I objected to was you statement that it was their Veganism, a lifestyle you seem to find particular umbridge with, which killed the child. I merely pointed out that the child died of malnutrition which had nothing to do with the parents lifestyle choice. Yes, Vegans arent quite as big as meat eaters, the diet isnt quite as good, but its a long way form being deadly. I also pointed out that such statements as pointy teeth and forward looking eyes are no guaranteed indicator of being a meat eater. I might equally have used any other primate whose diet is entirely vegetarian like an Orangutang as well as a Gorilla. I also stated, quite rightly, that even though Chimpanzees do eat meat rarely, it is mostly the males that do, thus showing that an animal with an internal system extremely close to humans, with pointy teeth and foreward looking eyes, is perfectly capable of providing for its infant while eating a vegan diet. If you have a problem with Vegans, fair enough, but dont use the death of this child as a launch pad for your anti Vegan invective.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
My sources, which obviously you did not read, show animals in the wild eating meat. Hmmm, World Experts on Primatology "The Jane Goodall Foundation" or Fat-Boy, who should I believe?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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IDK it isnt something to threaten nor harrass people over, when done correctly veganism nor vegetarinism possibly supervised by a nutritionist nor a psych pro As far as being imposed on I find it much more that people are smarter then what you give them credit for Needless to say I wont be posting moi ap on here, for now!!!
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My sources, which obviously you did not read, show animals in the wild eating meat. Hmmm, World Experts on Primatology "The Jane Goodall Foundation" or Fat-Boy, who should I believe?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Yes, I looked at your links. 1) Chimps are canibal. Yes, we all know that. Doesnt have any bearing at all pn what I said. 2) Aparently animal flesh DNA found in Gorillas poo. But they have never ever been observed eating meat. I will suspect the validity of the study, and its the Jane Goodall Institute by the way, not Foundation, until I see visible proof. (Since DNA contamination is very very easy). My point rests attested. Veganism is not what killed the child and thus your rant was misplaced.
"If climate has not "tipped" in over 4 billion years it's not going to tip now due to mankind." Richard S. Lindzen, Atmospheric Physicist, IPCC "It does not matter who you are, or how smart you are, or what title you have, or how many of you here are, and certainly not how many papers your side has published, if your prediction is wrong then your hypothesis is wrong. Period." Professor Richard Feynman
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If you are an adult human being who wishes to go against your genetic, evolutionary and biological heritage and become a herbivore, then fine. It is wrong to impose those insane beliefs upon others. What with our funny forward pointing eyes, our ripping canine teeth and our strange arrangement of intestines and enzymes, all there simply to kill and eat meat, there is a no reason to become bovine like and just eat those vegetables. However, when those beliefs lead to the death of a child because of malnutrition, then you have a problem Like these morons.[^] There are protiens and nutrients in meat that are vital for development of children. Nutrients that cannot be obtained from any other sources. When Vegiwankers abuse children like this and stop their brains form developing properly then they deserve all they get.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
A doctor notes that a nine month old child has lost weight since its previous check up: And does nothing. A doctor notes that a nine month old child has bronchitis: And, effectively, does nothing. The sole purpose of such 'nanny state' checks is to compensate for the shortcomings of parents. Either of the above events requires the immediate monitoring of a child's care: Doing nothing is not an option. The doctor is as responsible for the child's death as the parents. Possibly more so, they were ignorant - the doctor wasn't. 'Brave New World' provides the only blueprint to child rearing that will protect children from the ignorance/stupidity of the family. We creep all too slowly towards that goal. BTW: I thought you were into evolutionary biology. Surely the miniscule human canines (compared with those of the chimpanzee) indicate that we have evolved away from rending our prey tooth and nail.
2011 - Our best hope is that things will be frightening and dangerous rather than desperate and horrific. Jesse's Café Américain
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If you are an adult human being who wishes to go against your genetic, evolutionary and biological heritage and become a herbivore, then fine. It is wrong to impose those insane beliefs upon others. What with our funny forward pointing eyes, our ripping canine teeth and our strange arrangement of intestines and enzymes, all there simply to kill and eat meat, there is a no reason to become bovine like and just eat those vegetables. However, when those beliefs lead to the death of a child because of malnutrition, then you have a problem Like these morons.[^] There are protiens and nutrients in meat that are vital for development of children. Nutrients that cannot be obtained from any other sources. When Vegiwankers abuse children like this and stop their brains form developing properly then they deserve all they get.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
This isn't about the diet, it's about the mental retardation of the parents. I assure you that billions of humans have been born and raised on healthy meatless diets; India. This same shit comes up every once in a while about parents who refuse modern medicine for their children, or neglect kids to game or gamble or abuse drugs.
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" — Hunter S. Thompson
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Ian, I never initiate any thread or conversaton about religious belief. However, should someone bring the subject up, then I feel quite within my rights to downplay any religious aspect. you may think I am pushing an agenda, and perhaps I am, for I am a Neo-Atheist. That is to say that not only do I not believe, but I actively ridicule and decry any action or policy that has a religious agenda. On the subject of herbivores, if an adult wishes to do that, I have no objection, so long as they do not impose upon me any dietry restictions. I will sit in the company of Vegans and order a rare steak. My view is that you are free to do what you wish as long as it affects no-one else. But when those beliefs do affect others, then they must be questioned and challenged. Dead Babies are worth a question or two I think.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
I will sit in the company of Vegans and order a rare steak.
Although I eat meat without a second thought, I would find it rude to force someone to watch me eat it who thought, for whatever reason, it is a bad thing to do. I would feel like I was imposing my beliefs on others and they'd probably feel about me the way many do Fat_Boy posting on Global Warming.
Where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master. ~ Ayn Rand
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
I'm just waiting for some science team to publish conclusive proof that vegetarianism/veganism is directly harmful to your health
The problem is that doing good science on nutrition is hard because you can't lock people in cages and force them to eat your test diet for years at time. The other issue is that the average person's diet is so poor that even a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier. My personal experiment showed that me eating a low fat vegetarian diet caused the following issues: loss of muscle mass, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, difficulty thinking, ADHD symptoms, IBS and bacne (acne on my face and back). Dropping beans, rice, wheat, dairy except butter from my diet, and adding bacon, red meat, chicken, fatty fish, bacon, eggs and tons more green veggies fixed a lot of those problems.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
Andy Brummer wrote:
My personal experiment showed that me eating a low fat vegetarian diet caused the following issues: loss of muscle mass, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, difficulty thinking, ADHD symptoms, IBS and bacne (acne on my face and back).
Sounds like adolescence.
Where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master. ~ Ayn Rand
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Imposition of beliefs on others is just wrong
Says the guy who's always pushing his (non-)religious beliefs? Come on, Dave, bit of hypocrisy? I mean don't get me wrong... I actually agree with 99% of what you say in those posts, and this one... Just think ya need to qualify that subject a bit. :) On topic, though... I'm just waiting for some science team to publish conclusive proof that vegetarianism/veganism is directly harmful to your health (Though being vegan does give you magical powers[^]). I mean if people want to give up meat, that's their choice, but I'm sick of them claiming that it's healthier. Human beings are omnivores, not herbivores.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Grown up people can argue back, or walk away. They can defend themselves. Kids can't. I don't think it's fair to compare DD to whackos like these.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Grown up people can argue back, or walk away. They can defend themselves. Kids can't. I don't think it's fair to compare DD to whackos like these.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
True, but just making a point.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)