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Quick, Authoritative Precognition

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  • G Offline
    G Offline
    GAMerritt
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    mohammedghaderian.bp [^] said, quote: Hi everybody, I want to develop an application with c# without .net framework and I want to use win32 dlls? Can I do it? endquote. His Question was down-voted, considered solved, with a final "No." So if I want to "make trouble" by suggesting that CodeDom methods could be used to generate runtime code which references DLLs as imports in C# and that IL might be used directly to circumvent the problem, then what? Although C# would be almost impotent without the .NET runtime, it still might be possible to write a rudimentary and barely functional program that does almost nothing. So, would anyone try to create one? Obviously not. The clincher is that everyone knows that Microsoft has 'sewn up' the .NET framework into a patchwork that nobody can use to do things Microsoft hasn't foreseen and explicitly allowed for. Every security token and access right, and the entire 'managed' code structure, is designed deliberately in order to prevent any strategy which might be 'competitive' to Microsoft from achieving anything with their runtime. So if what you want to do hasn't already been condoned in advance, you can't do it. And everyone knows it. That's why you all gave such a quick answer to mohammedghaderian.bp's question and downvoted it.

    P S J L 4 Replies Last reply
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    • G GAMerritt

      mohammedghaderian.bp [^] said, quote: Hi everybody, I want to develop an application with c# without .net framework and I want to use win32 dlls? Can I do it? endquote. His Question was down-voted, considered solved, with a final "No." So if I want to "make trouble" by suggesting that CodeDom methods could be used to generate runtime code which references DLLs as imports in C# and that IL might be used directly to circumvent the problem, then what? Although C# would be almost impotent without the .NET runtime, it still might be possible to write a rudimentary and barely functional program that does almost nothing. So, would anyone try to create one? Obviously not. The clincher is that everyone knows that Microsoft has 'sewn up' the .NET framework into a patchwork that nobody can use to do things Microsoft hasn't foreseen and explicitly allowed for. Every security token and access right, and the entire 'managed' code structure, is designed deliberately in order to prevent any strategy which might be 'competitive' to Microsoft from achieving anything with their runtime. So if what you want to do hasn't already been condoned in advance, you can't do it. And everyone knows it. That's why you all gave such a quick answer to mohammedghaderian.bp's question and downvoted it.

      P Offline
      P Offline
      Pete OHanlon
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Actually, that would make an interesting article if you'd care to write it. It's not something I've considered doing, writing a C# application that doesn't use the .NET framework in any way. If you'd care to write this article, I would be very interested in reading it.

      Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads

      My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility

      W 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • P Pete OHanlon

        Actually, that would make an interesting article if you'd care to write it. It's not something I've considered doing, writing a C# application that doesn't use the .NET framework in any way. If you'd care to write this article, I would be very interested in reading it.

        Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads

        My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility

        W Offline
        W Offline
        wizardzz
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Olive branch?

        Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

        P 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • W wizardzz

          Olive branch?

          Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson

          P Offline
          P Offline
          Pete OHanlon
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          No. I really would be interested in it, as it's not something I've considered doing and I'd like to see how it could be done because I've always assumed you couldn't decouple a C# object from the .NET runtime. As far as it being an olive branch, I honestly think this poster hates me with a passion so any gesture would be meaningless (in fact, I'm tempted to see how else I can wind him up to see if I can generate more hate pages - it's kind of cool that he's done this), but that doesn't stop me from being interested in seeing how this code would work.

          Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads

          My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility

          O 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • G GAMerritt

            mohammedghaderian.bp [^] said, quote: Hi everybody, I want to develop an application with c# without .net framework and I want to use win32 dlls? Can I do it? endquote. His Question was down-voted, considered solved, with a final "No." So if I want to "make trouble" by suggesting that CodeDom methods could be used to generate runtime code which references DLLs as imports in C# and that IL might be used directly to circumvent the problem, then what? Although C# would be almost impotent without the .NET runtime, it still might be possible to write a rudimentary and barely functional program that does almost nothing. So, would anyone try to create one? Obviously not. The clincher is that everyone knows that Microsoft has 'sewn up' the .NET framework into a patchwork that nobody can use to do things Microsoft hasn't foreseen and explicitly allowed for. Every security token and access right, and the entire 'managed' code structure, is designed deliberately in order to prevent any strategy which might be 'competitive' to Microsoft from achieving anything with their runtime. So if what you want to do hasn't already been condoned in advance, you can't do it. And everyone knows it. That's why you all gave such a quick answer to mohammedghaderian.bp's question and downvoted it.

            S Offline
            S Offline
            Single Step Debugger
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            I answered the question with some tip.

            There is only one Ashley Judd and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.

            M 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • S Single Step Debugger

              I answered the question with some tip.

              There is only one Ashley Judd and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.

              M Offline
              M Offline
              Majerus
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Deyan Georgiev wrote:

              There is only one Ashley Judd and Salma Hayek is her prophet!

              :thumbsup:

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • P Pete OHanlon

                No. I really would be interested in it, as it's not something I've considered doing and I'd like to see how it could be done because I've always assumed you couldn't decouple a C# object from the .NET runtime. As far as it being an olive branch, I honestly think this poster hates me with a passion so any gesture would be meaningless (in fact, I'm tempted to see how else I can wind him up to see if I can generate more hate pages - it's kind of cool that he's done this), but that doesn't stop me from being interested in seeing how this code would work.

                Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads

                My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility

                O Offline
                O Offline
                Oakman
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Pete O'Hanlon wrote:

                it's kind of cool that he's done this

                I don't know why this site hasn't been parked, but ihatepetehanlon.com is available for just $11.99/yr

                $(John Resig).unwrap(Mozilla Corporation).wrap(Khan Academy).live(jQuery);

                D 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • O Oakman

                  Pete O'Hanlon wrote:

                  it's kind of cool that he's done this

                  I don't know why this site hasn't been parked, but ihatepetehanlon.com is available for just $11.99/yr

                  $(John Resig).unwrap(Mozilla Corporation).wrap(Khan Academy).live(jQuery);

                  D Offline
                  D Offline
                  Dalek Dave
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  I would use this one[^]

                  ------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • G GAMerritt

                    mohammedghaderian.bp [^] said, quote: Hi everybody, I want to develop an application with c# without .net framework and I want to use win32 dlls? Can I do it? endquote. His Question was down-voted, considered solved, with a final "No." So if I want to "make trouble" by suggesting that CodeDom methods could be used to generate runtime code which references DLLs as imports in C# and that IL might be used directly to circumvent the problem, then what? Although C# would be almost impotent without the .NET runtime, it still might be possible to write a rudimentary and barely functional program that does almost nothing. So, would anyone try to create one? Obviously not. The clincher is that everyone knows that Microsoft has 'sewn up' the .NET framework into a patchwork that nobody can use to do things Microsoft hasn't foreseen and explicitly allowed for. Every security token and access right, and the entire 'managed' code structure, is designed deliberately in order to prevent any strategy which might be 'competitive' to Microsoft from achieving anything with their runtime. So if what you want to do hasn't already been condoned in advance, you can't do it. And everyone knows it. That's why you all gave such a quick answer to mohammedghaderian.bp's question and downvoted it.

                    J Offline
                    J Offline
                    jschell
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    GAMerritt wrote:

                    The clincher is that everyone knows that Microsoft has 'sewn up' the .NET framework into a
                    patchwork that nobody can use to do things Microsoft hasn't foreseen and explicitly allowed
                    for. Every security token and access right, and the entire 'managed' code structure, is
                    designed deliberately in order to prevent any strategy which might be 'competitive' to
                    Microsoft from achieving anything with their runtime.

                    Only to those that think MS is a god. Conversely there are certain to be some that consider that MS is composed of nothing but normal humans. And as such they are just as unlikely to be better than any other large corporation in implementing anything in a comphrensive way and certianly not a 100% effective way.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • G GAMerritt

                      mohammedghaderian.bp [^] said, quote: Hi everybody, I want to develop an application with c# without .net framework and I want to use win32 dlls? Can I do it? endquote. His Question was down-voted, considered solved, with a final "No." So if I want to "make trouble" by suggesting that CodeDom methods could be used to generate runtime code which references DLLs as imports in C# and that IL might be used directly to circumvent the problem, then what? Although C# would be almost impotent without the .NET runtime, it still might be possible to write a rudimentary and barely functional program that does almost nothing. So, would anyone try to create one? Obviously not. The clincher is that everyone knows that Microsoft has 'sewn up' the .NET framework into a patchwork that nobody can use to do things Microsoft hasn't foreseen and explicitly allowed for. Every security token and access right, and the entire 'managed' code structure, is designed deliberately in order to prevent any strategy which might be 'competitive' to Microsoft from achieving anything with their runtime. So if what you want to do hasn't already been condoned in advance, you can't do it. And everyone knows it. That's why you all gave such a quick answer to mohammedghaderian.bp's question and downvoted it.

                      L Offline
                      L Offline
                      Lost User
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      No. C# needs an interpreter, thats what .net is. Its not a compiled language, thus cant run direct on the hardware. Its the same with Java and a JVM (in fact this is what C# and .net was before Micosoft got told off by the courts for abusing the Java standard and Sun forced them to remove every reference to Java from Microsofts products. Of course revenge is sweet since .net et al is WAY more popular than Java ever was). In fact built J++ can run on .net.

                      Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost

                      J 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • L Lost User

                        No. C# needs an interpreter, thats what .net is. Its not a compiled language, thus cant run direct on the hardware. Its the same with Java and a JVM (in fact this is what C# and .net was before Micosoft got told off by the courts for abusing the Java standard and Sun forced them to remove every reference to Java from Microsofts products. Of course revenge is sweet since .net et al is WAY more popular than Java ever was). In fact built J++ can run on .net.

                        Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost

                        J Offline
                        J Offline
                        jschell
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        fat_boy wrote:

                        Of course revenge is sweet since .net et al is WAY more popular than Java ever was).

                        Wrong. Not even close. http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html[^]

                        fat_boy wrote:

                        In fact built J++ can run on .net.

                        Pretty irrelevant given that absolutely no one uses that language. And it isn't Java either.

                        L 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • J jschell

                          fat_boy wrote:

                          Of course revenge is sweet since .net et al is WAY more popular than Java ever was).

                          Wrong. Not even close. http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html[^]

                          fat_boy wrote:

                          In fact built J++ can run on .net.

                          Pretty irrelevant given that absolutely no one uses that language. And it isn't Java either.

                          L Offline
                          L Offline
                          Lost User
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Lookingh at job specs I would say the so. Way more C# in demand than Java. So, your table there, whats it based on... "The ratings are based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide, courses and third party vendors. The popular search engines Google, Bing, Yahoo!, Wikipedia, YouTube and Baidu are used to calculate the ratings" So its a reflection of the existing skills in the workplace (based on experience, ie, the past), courses (often out of date but still offered in case anyones interested) TP vendors (selling all sorts of products, often out of date but still for sale incase anyones interested). My figures ared based on job adverts and therefore represents real current demand, not the historic positioning of the market based on the dredgings of a few search engines.

                          Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost

                          J 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • L Lost User

                            Lookingh at job specs I would say the so. Way more C# in demand than Java. So, your table there, whats it based on... "The ratings are based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide, courses and third party vendors. The popular search engines Google, Bing, Yahoo!, Wikipedia, YouTube and Baidu are used to calculate the ratings" So its a reflection of the existing skills in the workplace (based on experience, ie, the past), courses (often out of date but still offered in case anyones interested) TP vendors (selling all sorts of products, often out of date but still for sale incase anyones interested). My figures ared based on job adverts and therefore represents real current demand, not the historic positioning of the market based on the dredgings of a few search engines.

                            Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost

                            J Offline
                            J Offline
                            jschell
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            fat_boy wrote:

                            My figures ared based on job adverts and therefore represents real current demand, not the historic positioning of the market based on the dredgings of a few search engines.

                            Provide the actual numbers and methodology.

                            L 1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • J jschell

                              fat_boy wrote:

                              My figures ared based on job adverts and therefore represents real current demand, not the historic positioning of the market based on the dredgings of a few search engines.

                              Provide the actual numbers and methodology.

                              L Offline
                              L Offline
                              Lost User
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Maybe its different in the UK to where you are, but the UK is a big IT market, bigger IMO than the rest of Europe given the quantity of job adverts, but C# is big. jobserve.co.uk, in terms of the jobs posted in th alast 7 days, has C# and Java pretty much the same in UK and Europe, in the US is less equal. I havent got any partisan interest in this, I personally think they are both pretty questionable ways of programming a computer and I work mostly in the kernel using C on windows (although I use C++ for user mode since its generally used with UI frameworks). If I were to have to chose between C# and Java, from my experience, and from what I have heard, the UI components put C# ahead. If I were to be working in Linux, I guess Java would be the choice, (but then I know sod all about Linux).

                              Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost

                              J 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • L Lost User

                                Maybe its different in the UK to where you are, but the UK is a big IT market, bigger IMO than the rest of Europe given the quantity of job adverts, but C# is big. jobserve.co.uk, in terms of the jobs posted in th alast 7 days, has C# and Java pretty much the same in UK and Europe, in the US is less equal. I havent got any partisan interest in this, I personally think they are both pretty questionable ways of programming a computer and I work mostly in the kernel using C on windows (although I use C++ for user mode since its generally used with UI frameworks). If I were to have to chose between C# and Java, from my experience, and from what I have heard, the UI components put C# ahead. If I were to be working in Linux, I guess Java would be the choice, (but then I know sod all about Linux).

                                Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost

                                J Offline
                                J Offline
                                jschell
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                I see neither numbers nor methodology in that posting. The link I provided has been collecting numerics for years. To refute it something similar that actually provides real numbers and which provides something more than a single instance in time would be needed.

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