The continuing saga of bad code [modified]
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Jeremy Hutchinson wrote:
Right, the exception that proves the rule. <- how is that even a saying, it really doesn't make sense if you think about it so I'm going to stop thinking about it.
"The exception proves the rule" means that if an exception to a rule is specified, it proves the existence of a rule to be excepted from. In a simple example, if a sign were to read "No parking from 7am to 5pm", then that exception proves the rule that parking is allowed at other times. It's used in court cases to help establish right and wrong when the rules aren't necessarily clear. When you say "the exception proves the rule" when simply referring to a counter-example, then you're misusing the phrase.
cmbergin wrote:
"The exception proves the rule" means that if an exception to a rule is specified, it proves the existence of a rule to be excepted from
Not quite! The issue is that the word 'prove' has changed meaning since the expression was created. Nowadays, we think of 'proof' as positive evidence; it used to mean 'test' (i.e. a case that will see if the rule actually holds up). So, a modern translation of the expression would be "the exception tests the veracity of the rule". The old meaning still persists in many places. For example, it is why even after you have proved a theorem, it is still a 'theorem', not a fact ... their may be other proofs / tests that could be applied. The expression "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" uses the same use of the word 'proof' - you have to test the food (by eating it) to see if it is good. Also, when you read a text before publishing, the text are called 'proofs' and the reading is called 'proof reading' - you are testing the text for errors, not proving that there are none. Dijkstra's quote [citation needed] that "Testing only proves the existence of bugs, not their absence" (other variants exist) uses the 'modern' use of the word 'proves', not its traditional meaning.
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You are the one assigning blame. I'm merely stating an opinion based on my own empirical evidence. Idiocy has no bounds in language or culture.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
Yes! I am correctly assigning blame to the programmer, not the tool. If you are not blaming VB, then why did you suggest that it be discontinued? Empirical evidence? My empirical evidence is that C# (and VB and PHP, etc.) programmers create poor programs. But, I don't conclude that those languages should be discontinued. It has nothing to do with the programming language.
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Yes! I am correctly assigning blame to the programmer, not the tool. If you are not blaming VB, then why did you suggest that it be discontinued? Empirical evidence? My empirical evidence is that C# (and VB and PHP, etc.) programmers create poor programs. But, I don't conclude that those languages should be discontinued. It has nothing to do with the programming language.
Why are you getting so upset over an opinion?
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Better News Corp, than News International ;)
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Would be nice if I were financially independent and could pick and choose the contracts, or just quit after starting and seeing the mess.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
without messes, there wouldn't be work...
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
you know, Python is a simple clean language and I really haven't seen many bad examples. The question is 'Why does VB attract bad coding?' Maybe because it's touted as the 'easier' way to program. I also started learning programming from VBA in MS Office and wrestled with what .net language I would learn to get involved in .net. I chose C# because it was too hard for me to grasp concepts in VB.net that were totally different from VBA. This could be similar to VB.net users in general. They don't get out of the box of VB 6 programming. Very procedural and functional.
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
Uh huh. And of course no one ever writes bad code in C# or C++, right? ;)
XAlan Burkhart
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
VB is indeed the problem. Because when you start an application design with the decision to use VB, you know the rest of the design decisions will not be good. The only hope for a VB project is to involve someone who clearly doesn't want to be there.
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
If MS did away with VB those coders would code crap in C#, and then you would have no warning that it was going to be poorly written code. The way it is now, if you're called in on a VB project you can be fairly certain you are going to see horrors beyond comprehension. With C# you can expect it to be decent. There are exceptions in both languages of course, but by there definition exceptions are rare...
Even though I am not a VB coder (I prefer C#), there is a reason to celebrate VB! Let's keep C# clean.
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
The reason for this is the language unfortunately. VB - Originally WB, but Microsoft was scared that too many people will start calling it Wanna Be, coz thats who it really caters for. They just didn't want to make it obvious that, that was their market aim. ;P
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." << please vote!! >>
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
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Blaming VB for run-on and spaghetti code is like blaming Ford because the Taurus you rented has bald tires. If VB were discontinued, all those lousy developers would be making even lousier C# or C++ code.
This thread is so last week. Where have you been? "Blame" has been called by all of you trying to defend the practices that are progated by the poor langauge and practitionors of it. Thanks for contributing.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Why are you getting so upset over an opinion?
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
Because it is clearly wrong, lol. (And thats how wars start)
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I disagree - I've got that crap in C# code..