Envisage this, if you will...
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This may be a slightly grim scenario, but after reading a particular Dilbert cartoon this question has been pestering me incessantly. If the next project your manager gave you had you writing code for a missile guidance system, how would you react? Could you sleep at night knowing without too much doubt that somewhere in the world, your C++ program was helping a surface-to-surface missile find it's target? This doesn't apply to me or anyone I know, but I'm curious as to whether anybody here would turn down a job such as this on the basis of how it could affect your conscience?
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
I'd write it cause I still find software the runs on something other than a desktop fun to write. Look what I made the phone/pda/circuit board do... neato. Interesting thought though. Say you write such software, and the target evades the missile. How should the missile respond? Abort, Retry, Fail? If the missile goes looking for the target again what guarantee is there that if finds the "correct" target again?
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This may be a slightly grim scenario, but after reading a particular Dilbert cartoon this question has been pestering me incessantly. If the next project your manager gave you had you writing code for a missile guidance system, how would you react? Could you sleep at night knowing without too much doubt that somewhere in the world, your C++ program was helping a surface-to-surface missile find it's target? This doesn't apply to me or anyone I know, but I'm curious as to whether anybody here would turn down a job such as this on the basis of how it could affect your conscience?
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
Personally, I would immediately quit: I will not work for a company whose products violate very deeply held beliefs against murder. Whether I am directly responsible for allowing people to kill other people, or indirectly responsible, I am still responsible.
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Having been a member of the military and had my hand on the trigger myself.. I would write the software in a minute. My conscience would be placated by the fact that I was doing a service for my country, even if I do not agree with everything my country does... its still my country. The day I cannot in clear conscience (or at least semi clear...) do anything for my country, I should think it was time to move. Same thing that let me sleep at night while in said military to start with. Is that a blanket cure for everybody in that same boat? not at all, just mine. And maybe, if I didn't do it, there might some chance that a worse programmer might do it and in fact cause more deaths by a faulty system. Yes that's a stretch but then again, is it? (ok its a stretch for me because I know that at the moment I'm not good enough to write a missile guidance system.. :-D )
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
gavindon wrote:
And maybe, if I didn't do it, there might some chance that a worse programmer might do it and in fact cause more deaths by a faulty system.
I hadn't considered that outcome, but also to add on to that, it may cause the same amount, but due to inaccuracies those deaths may be innocent people instead. And on a related note, I had a great (might be two greats) uncle who won the Medal of Honor Freedom for improving bombing accuracy in WWII.
modified on Monday, August 22, 2011 10:25 PM
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I'd put in some easter eggs[^]! :D Seriously though, I've been a vegetarian for 13 years and I make software for slaughterhouses. I think the step towards weapons of mass destruction is quite small :) Although the impact of having a Cancel button that doesn't Cancel after all is slightly bigger :^)
It's an OO world.
come on, easter eggs are a MUST have item.. Like last night when working on a small learning project at home I had the final error catching(while trying to pinpoint some funky behavior) simply put on screen "I have no F**ing Clue" At least when I seen that I knew it wasn't the other known issues :-D My wife about died when she seen my screen..... hey it keeps me going.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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Having been a member of the military and had my hand on the trigger myself.. I would write the software in a minute. My conscience would be placated by the fact that I was doing a service for my country, even if I do not agree with everything my country does... its still my country. The day I cannot in clear conscience (or at least semi clear...) do anything for my country, I should think it was time to move. Same thing that let me sleep at night while in said military to start with. Is that a blanket cure for everybody in that same boat? not at all, just mine. And maybe, if I didn't do it, there might some chance that a worse programmer might do it and in fact cause more deaths by a faulty system. Yes that's a stretch but then again, is it? (ok its a stretch for me because I know that at the moment I'm not good enough to write a missile guidance system.. :-D )
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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gavindon wrote:
placated by the fact that I was doing a service for my country
But how could you ever know if that was the case? Countries sell weapons to each other all the time. The regime you prop up today could turn on you tomorrow.
well to take that train of thought to its end though, how do I know the guy I'm pointing the m16 at was in fact a "bad guy" , just because my commanding officer told me it was so don't mean it was true. But I take your point however. You just have to draw that personal line at some point I guess.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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Personally, I would immediately quit: I will not work for a company whose products violate very deeply held beliefs against murder. Whether I am directly responsible for allowing people to kill other people, or indirectly responsible, I am still responsible.
If you worked for a plant that manufactures hammers, and one of said hammers is used in a murder, are you responsible? Or a plant that produces fertilizer, and that fertilizer is used to manufacture a bomb used in a terrorist attack? I really don't think the responsibility lies on any one but the person who uses it.
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Personally, I would immediately quit: I will not work for a company whose products violate very deeply held beliefs against murder. Whether I am directly responsible for allowing people to kill other people, or indirectly responsible, I am still responsible.
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This may be a slightly grim scenario, but after reading a particular Dilbert cartoon this question has been pestering me incessantly. If the next project your manager gave you had you writing code for a missile guidance system, how would you react? Could you sleep at night knowing without too much doubt that somewhere in the world, your C++ program was helping a surface-to-surface missile find it's target? This doesn't apply to me or anyone I know, but I'm curious as to whether anybody here would turn down a job such as this on the basis of how it could affect your conscience?
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
I don't think I'd do it, because I'd get sick of having to constantly watch over my shoulder for Sara Connor...
"... having only that moment finished a vigorous game of Wiff-Waff and eaten a tartiflet." - Henry Minute
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gavindon wrote:
And maybe, if I didn't do it, there might some chance that a worse programmer might do it and in fact cause more deaths by a faulty system.
I hadn't considered that outcome, but also to add on to that, it may cause the same amount, but due to inaccuracies those deaths may be innocent people instead. And on a related note, I had a great (might be two greats) uncle who won the Medal of Honor Freedom for improving bombing accuracy in WWII.
modified on Monday, August 22, 2011 10:25 PM
well I at first intended to say innocent people, but I am of no assumption that their targets might not include innocents no matter how well written the code is. But at least I would not be directly responsible for innocents due to crappy work. Misuse of the tools I built would be a different issue.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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If I did it I'd have the entire miltary telling me they don't like the positioning, hue, font or prompt text of the launch button. I'd probably also get insurgent-of-the-day emails listings locations, and then I'd be asked if perhaps it would make sense to provide a few of the more trusted guys on the mailing list to have their own personal buttons so they could launch a few, you know, on the side, just to lighten the load a little. I think putting the Konami code in the main interface would probably be the thing that ended my contract. :sigh:
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
ROTFL :-D :laugh:
WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your a$$ will be laminated. There are 10 kinds of people in the world: People who know binary and people who don't.
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If you worked for a plant that manufactures hammers, and one of said hammers is used in a murder, are you responsible? Or a plant that produces fertilizer, and that fertilizer is used to manufacture a bomb used in a terrorist attack? I really don't think the responsibility lies on any one but the person who uses it.
While I understand your point, I think the difference between his and yours is that a missile guidance system is under no illusions of being anything but a missile guidance system. Whereas a hammer or fertilizer is not MEANT for those other uses, and the responsibility is on the people who misuse them.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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While I understand your point, I think the difference between his and yours is that a missile guidance system is under no illusions of being anything but a missile guidance system. Whereas a hammer or fertilizer is not MEANT for those other uses, and the responsibility is on the people who misuse them.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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This may be a slightly grim scenario, but after reading a particular Dilbert cartoon this question has been pestering me incessantly. If the next project your manager gave you had you writing code for a missile guidance system, how would you react? Could you sleep at night knowing without too much doubt that somewhere in the world, your C++ program was helping a surface-to-surface missile find it's target? This doesn't apply to me or anyone I know, but I'm curious as to whether anybody here would turn down a job such as this on the basis of how it could affect your conscience?
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
Just make sure you license the code under BSD or similar :)
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This may be a slightly grim scenario, but after reading a particular Dilbert cartoon this question has been pestering me incessantly. If the next project your manager gave you had you writing code for a missile guidance system, how would you react? Could you sleep at night knowing without too much doubt that somewhere in the world, your C++ program was helping a surface-to-surface missile find it's target? This doesn't apply to me or anyone I know, but I'm curious as to whether anybody here would turn down a job such as this on the basis of how it could affect your conscience?
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
could you help write a Skynet type program after watching Terminator??? :-D
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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I'd put in some easter eggs[^]! :D Seriously though, I've been a vegetarian for 13 years and I make software for slaughterhouses. I think the step towards weapons of mass destruction is quite small :) Although the impact of having a Cancel button that doesn't Cancel after all is slightly bigger :^)
It's an OO world.
Easter eggs are awesome. Mine'd activate an interactive fun-filled adventure game... - "Press left-right-left-up-down to help Kitty Cat and her friends initiate the launch sequence." - "Can you get Mr. Peebles through the maze so he can activate the fuel release mechanism?" Of course, the launch would have to be delayed while IT admin worked their way through six action-packed levels of family fun.
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
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If I did it I'd have the entire miltary telling me they don't like the positioning, hue, font or prompt text of the launch button. I'd probably also get insurgent-of-the-day emails listings locations, and then I'd be asked if perhaps it would make sense to provide a few of the more trusted guys on the mailing list to have their own personal buttons so they could launch a few, you know, on the side, just to lighten the load a little. I think putting the Konami code in the main interface would probably be the thing that ended my contract. :sigh:
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Do missiles have reputation point ?
Watched code never compiles.
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This may be a slightly grim scenario, but after reading a particular Dilbert cartoon this question has been pestering me incessantly. If the next project your manager gave you had you writing code for a missile guidance system, how would you react? Could you sleep at night knowing without too much doubt that somewhere in the world, your C++ program was helping a surface-to-surface missile find it's target? This doesn't apply to me or anyone I know, but I'm curious as to whether anybody here would turn down a job such as this on the basis of how it could affect your conscience?
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
We had a few people turned down job offer because we have defense (sub)-sub-contractor as our clients (BAE for building F35 parts); but we also sell to civilian (Airbus, but we also do military airbus planes). There are a lot of domain where one can turn down a job because of their conscience, not just military, it can be in Adult industry websites, casino websites, spam/virus shops, medical application (stem cell stuff)... Heck, even working in 3D application (3dstudio max, ... ) and frameworks (catia, ACIS, ... ) will be used in military application development ... M.
Watched code never compiles.
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We had a few people turned down job offer because we have defense (sub)-sub-contractor as our clients (BAE for building F35 parts); but we also sell to civilian (Airbus, but we also do military airbus planes). There are a lot of domain where one can turn down a job because of their conscience, not just military, it can be in Adult industry websites, casino websites, spam/virus shops, medical application (stem cell stuff)... Heck, even working in 3D application (3dstudio max, ... ) and frameworks (catia, ACIS, ... ) will be used in military application development ... M.
Watched code never compiles.
Maximilien wrote:
frameworks
I wonder how the people who built .Net sleep at night. :rolleyes:
Martin Fowler wrote:
Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand.
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gavindon wrote:
And maybe, if I didn't do it, there might some chance that a worse programmer might do it and in fact cause more deaths by a faulty system.
I hadn't considered that outcome, but also to add on to that, it may cause the same amount, but due to inaccuracies those deaths may be innocent people instead. And on a related note, I had a great (might be two greats) uncle who won the Medal of Honor Freedom for improving bombing accuracy in WWII.
modified on Monday, August 22, 2011 10:25 PM
lewax00 wrote:
And on a related note, I had a great (might be two greats) uncle who won the Medal of Honor for improving bombing accuracy in WWII.
Are you sure about that? The M.O.H. is awarded for "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States."
“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." ~ Albert Einstein
