Agree or Disagree
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The basics of this blog are: There's an over reliance on experience in job postings. Should experience matter? Is the ability to learn more important than having experience? Programming is programming is programming - eventually the only thing that changes is syntax.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
There's an over reliance on experience in job postings.
Job posting - because they want to filter the crowd, you cannot take interview/shortlist candidates from 10000+ applications, if everyone is welcome.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Should experience matter?
Of course it matters, there is a difference between a fresher learning asp.net and a java guy with 10+ years, learning asp.net. it helps when you compare different technology instead of learning new one.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Is the ability to learn more important than having experience?
Both are important, sometimes ability to learn more is more important, and sometimes you have enough experience that you just need to refer something instead of learn it. also the ability to learn more gives you more experience.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Programming is programming is programming - eventually the only thing that changes is syntax.
In my opinion it's not that simple, some technology requires new mind set, i.e. if you know ASP.Net then to learn ASP.Net MVC not even syntax changes, but mind set does. same as if you know PHP and then you want to develop somehting on Ruby on Rails, it's not just different syntax. same with Winforms and WPF.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
There's an over reliance on experience in job postings.
Job posting - because they want to filter the crowd, you cannot take interview/shortlist candidates from 10000+ applications, if everyone is welcome.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Should experience matter?
Of course it matters, there is a difference between a fresher learning asp.net and a java guy with 10+ years, learning asp.net. it helps when you compare different technology instead of learning new one.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Is the ability to learn more important than having experience?
Both are important, sometimes ability to learn more is more important, and sometimes you have enough experience that you just need to refer something instead of learn it. also the ability to learn more gives you more experience.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Programming is programming is programming - eventually the only thing that changes is syntax.
In my opinion it's not that simple, some technology requires new mind set, i.e. if you know ASP.Net then to learn ASP.Net MVC not even syntax changes, but mind set does. same as if you know PHP and then you want to develop somehting on Ruby on Rails, it's not just different syntax. same with Winforms and WPF.
I have to agree with you too (despite my major argument in the blog). However even if your mindset had to change because you happend to have had just worked with one technology/framework, do you think yourself less able? Personally, I love to do that--having to learn somethign new to get something done. Those are the best moments of my job.
________ John Y. Developer
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It's a programming joke meant for those of us that actually experienced "the good ol' days".
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997... or drink liquid nitrogen on a regular basis. Woo-hoo! Here comes another one! :laugh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
There's an over reliance on experience in job postings.
Job posting - because they want to filter the crowd, you cannot take interview/shortlist candidates from 10000+ applications, if everyone is welcome.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Should experience matter?
Of course it matters, there is a difference between a fresher learning asp.net and a java guy with 10+ years, learning asp.net. it helps when you compare different technology instead of learning new one.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Is the ability to learn more important than having experience?
Both are important, sometimes ability to learn more is more important, and sometimes you have enough experience that you just need to refer something instead of learn it. also the ability to learn more gives you more experience.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Programming is programming is programming - eventually the only thing that changes is syntax.
In my opinion it's not that simple, some technology requires new mind set, i.e. if you know ASP.Net then to learn ASP.Net MVC not even syntax changes, but mind set does. same as if you know PHP and then you want to develop somehting on Ruby on Rails, it's not just different syntax. same with Winforms and WPF.
Rutvik Dave wrote:
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Should experience matter?
Of course it matters, there is a difference between a fresher learning asp.net and a java guy with 10+ years, learning asp.net. it helps when you compare different technology instead of learning new one.
Obviously you need to be able to demonstrate the ability to learn. I think that is kind of his point, I have been programming for 10 years in various guises. I have learnt 5 or 6 different languages, or variants upon them, in that time. Any job spec that demands 2 years experience of something in particular is likely to rule me out. Is it more important to have been doing the desired language for the last 2, 3, 4 years. Whatever they think they want, or is it more important to be able to show that you can learn things quickly, get up to speed with things quickly, deliver things (regardless of what they may be in), and get on with colleagues, customers, managers and so on. The experience of working is more important than the experience of a specific language.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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I have never taken an IT job (I am only on my 4th, and 2nd (possibly 3rd) programming, although on my 6th(ish) language) where I have had any experience doing the actual work it was intended I should do.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Between your profile pic, and the numerology in this post... I'll cut to the chase, are you Illuminati or Templar or something?
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson My comedy.
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Between your profile pic, and the numerology in this post... I'll cut to the chase, are you Illuminati or Templar or something?
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson My comedy.
Nah. I'm just desperately trying not to get found out. I learnt a long time ago in this profession, you do not need to know anything, you just need to know more than those you work for, or at least to be able to persuade them that you do.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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The basics of this blog are: There's an over reliance on experience in job postings. Should experience matter? Is the ability to learn more important than having experience? Programming is programming is programming - eventually the only thing that changes is syntax.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Should experience matter?
Yes - and no. It really depends on the position you're hiring for. In some cases, not having experience is going to be a complete barrier because you are going to have to be tought by somebody, and if what you are working on is niche market, then that means you're taking somebody away from doing their job. Saying that, in a less critical role, experience is desirable, but I'd rather hire an enthusiastic learner than somebody who's experienced but workshy.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Is the ability to learn more important than having experience?
Tricky one. You could argue that the person with experience has already displayed a willingness to learn; after all, they had to get that experience somehow.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
There's an over reliance on experience in job postings.
I've been flamed for this in the past, but I'll repeat it. Right now it's a hirers market, so they get to say what goes. I know it's unpalatable for people to hear this, but quite frankly this is just the way of the world with the way the economies are right now. If I advertise for a position, I'm going to get 20-30 candidates that have real experience - they don't have a job right now, or they are going to be made redundant, so hiring for experience is easy right now. When it's a candidates market, the whole hiring dynamic changes.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Programming is programming is programming - eventually the only thing that changes is syntax.
In general, this is true, but it's not always the case. Generally this applies to mainstream languages, but more specialist languages such as the functional languages - mean a whole shift in the way of thinking. The shift to declarative languages can take a lot of getting used to. Note - in all my arguments here, I'm treating experience as somebody who genuinely IS experienced, rather than somebody who just has a good CV. A final argument - you may be hiring somebody with experience because you don't have that experience yourself. In this case, you are looking for them to help you get that experience quickly and you aren't going to hire an enthusiastic beginner because they aren't going to provide any real value for you in this respect.
Forgive your enemies - it messes wit
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Rutvik Dave wrote:
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Should experience matter?
Of course it matters, there is a difference between a fresher learning asp.net and a java guy with 10+ years, learning asp.net. it helps when you compare different technology instead of learning new one.
Obviously you need to be able to demonstrate the ability to learn. I think that is kind of his point, I have been programming for 10 years in various guises. I have learnt 5 or 6 different languages, or variants upon them, in that time. Any job spec that demands 2 years experience of something in particular is likely to rule me out. Is it more important to have been doing the desired language for the last 2, 3, 4 years. Whatever they think they want, or is it more important to be able to show that you can learn things quickly, get up to speed with things quickly, deliver things (regardless of what they may be in), and get on with colleagues, customers, managers and so on. The experience of working is more important than the experience of a specific language.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
That's what I said in the next point :) , both are important but you cannot ignore experience (Que was: Does it matter ?). it will help you to learn new things faster.
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Click Here to read my most recent blog entry concernign programming specialty vs aptitute. Thoughts? I thought this may spur some conversation.
________ John Y. Developer
We are very lazy people here, so only link will not help, you need to describe on what is there on the link. We generally hate suprises unless it's from the code we wrote. :-D
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... or drink liquid nitrogen on a regular basis. Woo-hoo! Here comes another one! :laugh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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That's what I said in the next point :) , both are important but you cannot ignore experience (Que was: Does it matter ?). it will help you to learn new things faster.
Not necessarily. If you have a hundred years experience in the same thing then can you adapt, can you learn now, can you take on different ways of working, have you developed all sorts of little faults and quirks you are not aware of because all of you experience has been the same? Depends on the job on offer obviously (as many have said), but I think the person is of far more importance than the hard experience.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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We are very lazy people here, so only link will not help, you need to describe on what is there on the link. We generally hate suprises unless it's from the code we wrote. :-D
I'm pretty sure we've already covered this point in this thread. The truly lazy wouldn't bother reposting.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Not necessarily. If you have a hundred years experience in the same thing then can you adapt, can you learn now, can you take on different ways of working, have you developed all sorts of little faults and quirks you are not aware of because all of you experience has been the same? Depends on the job on offer obviously (as many have said), but I think the person is of far more importance than the hard experience.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
Not necessarily.
You dont consider experience useful ? come on mate... Whenever you need to google something that is mostly because you havent experience that issue before, if you did you could have solved the issue without googling. and after googleing the solution you learn that thing, now if you had experience you could have saved that time. :)
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I'm pretty sure we've already covered this point in this thread. The truly lazy wouldn't bother reposting.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
No, we are lazy on clicking links and reading things which are unknown... otherwise repost... is fun! :)
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We are very lazy people here, so only link will not help, you need to describe on what is there on the link. We generally hate suprises unless it's from the code we wrote. :-D
I like surprises. Wouldn't you like, to pick a name at random, to arrive home and find Salma Hayek[^] cooking your dinner?
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Rutvik Dave wrote:
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Should experience matter?
Of course it matters, there is a difference between a fresher learning asp.net and a java guy with 10+ years, learning asp.net. it helps when you compare different technology instead of learning new one.
Obviously you need to be able to demonstrate the ability to learn. I think that is kind of his point, I have been programming for 10 years in various guises. I have learnt 5 or 6 different languages, or variants upon them, in that time. Any job spec that demands 2 years experience of something in particular is likely to rule me out. Is it more important to have been doing the desired language for the last 2, 3, 4 years. Whatever they think they want, or is it more important to be able to show that you can learn things quickly, get up to speed with things quickly, deliver things (regardless of what they may be in), and get on with colleagues, customers, managers and so on. The experience of working is more important than the experience of a specific language.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
I think it would be different for permanent employee vs contractor/freelancer/temp A permanent employee is, generally, expected to be with the company for long enough that they might need to 'reskill' at some point, they are also expected to integrate into the company a lot more (and therefore learn the processes and approaches the company uses) whereas a non-permanent employee is generally valued for bringing pre-existing knowledge (i.e. experience) to the company for a short period of time. it doesn't really matter how fast a non-permanent employee can learn as they are unlikely to be around for long enough that they will have a chnace to use anything they learn.
Pedis ex oris
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I like surprises. Wouldn't you like, to pick a name at random, to arrive home and find Salma Hayek[^] cooking your dinner?
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Cooking dinner? No. I can order in. I'm pretty sure I can find something better to do - possibly involving a quick online purchase at the NUFC shop.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Cooking dinner? No. I can order in. I'm pretty sure I can find something better to do - possibly involving a quick online purchase at the NUFC shop.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
You'll buy her a tracksuit and go out jogging. giggity giggity
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I have to agree with you too (despite my major argument in the blog). However even if your mindset had to change because you happend to have had just worked with one technology/framework, do you think yourself less able? Personally, I love to do that--having to learn somethign new to get something done. Those are the best moments of my job.
________ John Y. Developer
John Y. wrote:
However even if your mindset had to change because you happend to have had just worked with one technology/framework, do you think yourself less able?
Not really as far as, I can change my mindset. Yes there is a problem, if I cannot change my mindset (which most likely to happen with older age ;P ).
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You'll buy her a tracksuit and go out jogging. giggity giggity
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Good clean wholesome fun mixed with plenty of jiggling.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
