Agree or Disagree
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Rutvik Dave wrote:
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Should experience matter?
Of course it matters, there is a difference between a fresher learning asp.net and a java guy with 10+ years, learning asp.net. it helps when you compare different technology instead of learning new one.
Obviously you need to be able to demonstrate the ability to learn. I think that is kind of his point, I have been programming for 10 years in various guises. I have learnt 5 or 6 different languages, or variants upon them, in that time. Any job spec that demands 2 years experience of something in particular is likely to rule me out. Is it more important to have been doing the desired language for the last 2, 3, 4 years. Whatever they think they want, or is it more important to be able to show that you can learn things quickly, get up to speed with things quickly, deliver things (regardless of what they may be in), and get on with colleagues, customers, managers and so on. The experience of working is more important than the experience of a specific language.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
I think it would be different for permanent employee vs contractor/freelancer/temp A permanent employee is, generally, expected to be with the company for long enough that they might need to 'reskill' at some point, they are also expected to integrate into the company a lot more (and therefore learn the processes and approaches the company uses) whereas a non-permanent employee is generally valued for bringing pre-existing knowledge (i.e. experience) to the company for a short period of time. it doesn't really matter how fast a non-permanent employee can learn as they are unlikely to be around for long enough that they will have a chnace to use anything they learn.
Pedis ex oris
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I like surprises. Wouldn't you like, to pick a name at random, to arrive home and find Salma Hayek[^] cooking your dinner?
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Cooking dinner? No. I can order in. I'm pretty sure I can find something better to do - possibly involving a quick online purchase at the NUFC shop.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Cooking dinner? No. I can order in. I'm pretty sure I can find something better to do - possibly involving a quick online purchase at the NUFC shop.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
You'll buy her a tracksuit and go out jogging. giggity giggity
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I have to agree with you too (despite my major argument in the blog). However even if your mindset had to change because you happend to have had just worked with one technology/framework, do you think yourself less able? Personally, I love to do that--having to learn somethign new to get something done. Those are the best moments of my job.
________ John Y. Developer
John Y. wrote:
However even if your mindset had to change because you happend to have had just worked with one technology/framework, do you think yourself less able?
Not really as far as, I can change my mindset. Yes there is a problem, if I cannot change my mindset (which most likely to happen with older age ;P ).
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You'll buy her a tracksuit and go out jogging. giggity giggity
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Good clean wholesome fun mixed with plenty of jiggling.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Good clean wholesome fun mixed with plenty of jiggling.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Now all we need to do is get the restraining order lifted. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I like surprises. Wouldn't you like, to pick a name at random, to arrive home and find Salma Hayek[^] cooking your dinner?
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
to arrive home and find Salma Hayek[^] cooking your dinner?
Now, why you want to incept this kind of hopes in my mind... why ?
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
to arrive home and find Salma Hayek[^] cooking your dinner?
Now, why you want to incept this kind of hopes in my mind... why ?
It won't bother you. You don't like surprises.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Now all we need to do is get the restraining order lifted. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
I already have. I've stopped restraining her from coming near me - honestly, it was getting embarrassing the way she kept stalking me. (That's what I told the judge when she kept turning up at places 20 seconds before I got there, she was pre-emptively stalking me).
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
to arrive home and find Salma Hayek[^] cooking your dinner?
Now, why you want to incept this kind of hopes in my mind... why ?
Rutvik Dave wrote:
Now, why you want to incept this kind of hopes in my mind... why ?
Okay have Nora Batty[^] instead.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
to arrive home and find Salma Hayek[^] cooking your dinner?
Now, why you want to incept this kind of hopes in my mind... why ?
This[^] lovely lady is waving just for you.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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This[^] lovely lady is waving just for you.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
I laughed just by reading the link.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I laughed just by reading the link.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
If she doesn't do it for him, nothing will.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Rutvik Dave wrote:
Now, why you want to incept this kind of hopes in my mind... why ?
Okay have Nora Batty[^] instead.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Ya okay, I am fine without any hopes... really... X|
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This[^] lovely lady is waving just for you.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
You broke your promise! :sigh:
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Click Here to read my most recent blog entry concernign programming specialty vs aptitute. Thoughts? I thought this may spur some conversation.
________ John Y. Developer
Bit of both: as someone else has pointed out, it really depends on the role and what is required. I get hired because I have years and years and years of both programming and banking experience. I've also found that however gifted a young developer is, they don't always 'get' what is required of them: something that only experience will give you. Personally I prefer to hire someone who has a bit of both but not quite so important for juniors though they must be able to demonstrate some decent social skills: you won't belive the number of kids that have no idea how to act around other people.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
mmmm... bacon!!
"You have died of Dysentery!" Have a nice day! ~Todd Gibson
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ChrisElston wrote:
Not necessarily.
You dont consider experience useful ? come on mate... Whenever you need to google something that is mostly because you havent experience that issue before, if you did you could have solved the issue without googling. and after googleing the solution you learn that thing, now if you had experience you could have saved that time. :)
If you're hiding behind all your experience you might not be able to recognise when you don't know something because you have all this experience. You might not realise that there is something new coming along because you are nice and snug and safe in your bed of experience.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Click Here to read my most recent blog entry concernign programming specialty vs aptitute. Thoughts? I thought this may spur some conversation.
________ John Y. Developer
I completely disagree with you and hate working with developers with your attitude. The notion that knowing how programming works makes you productive in any language after a bit of learning is beyond arrogant. Beginners at anything make beginner mistakes and most companies can't afford to deal with that on both the short and long/maintenance. The reason senior developers are desired is because they have actual experience, not theory. Above all, they know what doesn't work. A few years ago, I worked with a guy who learned .NET "on the job". His code mostly worked. But, he didn't understand many subtleties of .NET and C#. The end result were lots of edge case errors and weird failures. We're still dealing with the results of that to this day. (The person who took over the code made a mistake in regards to top most window, due to not fully understanding Win32.) The end result is that it's cost us time and money because we uses a jack of all trades and not a true senior developer in that skill set.
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I completely disagree with you and hate working with developers with your attitude. The notion that knowing how programming works makes you productive in any language after a bit of learning is beyond arrogant. Beginners at anything make beginner mistakes and most companies can't afford to deal with that on both the short and long/maintenance. The reason senior developers are desired is because they have actual experience, not theory. Above all, they know what doesn't work. A few years ago, I worked with a guy who learned .NET "on the job". His code mostly worked. But, he didn't understand many subtleties of .NET and C#. The end result were lots of edge case errors and weird failures. We're still dealing with the results of that to this day. (The person who took over the code made a mistake in regards to top most window, due to not fully understanding Win32.) The end result is that it's cost us time and money because we uses a jack of all trades and not a true senior developer in that skill set.
I definitely do NOT disagree with your response, and I sincerely apologize if I come across as arrogant. That was not my intention. And to point out one of the first lines in my blog: "I realize that sometimes a project requires immediate knowledge on the specific technology..." If that work you mentioned cost you money and time, it would more than likely fall under that statement. Mistakes will be made my anybody -- especially one learning the trade. My point was not to shy away against experts in certain languages, but not to merely discount some because their experience is not 100% specific to a language/technology. And bottom line, what I was trying to say is that I would hate for developers to get "stuck" in whatever languages/technoloy their first (few) jobs were.
________ John Y. Developer
