Anyone here actually care about Windows 8 and silverlight / wpf / jupiter controversy?
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I visited here periodically all summer looking to see any discussion and barely a word, now with less than a week I see a lot of jokes and not much else. I'm getting a strong "meh" vibe here whenever it comes up. I can only attribute this to a lot of people who work in cubicles and don't have to bet their future of their own business on the outcome of this or perhaps many of you have already moved off of windows development and only come here out of habit or are planning on retiring soon or...? I mean if not *here* then *where*? This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
There is no failure only feedback
I haven't heard anything about it; my friends at Microsoft are all under NDAs. So I went and looked at the rampant speculation and.... Meh. I doubt very much that MS will abandon the Forms framework: if almost every existing Windows application becomes non-functional, the company will not survive the blow-back. As long as Windows 8 supports the Forms framework, we can continue to write Forms based applications. It may be that VS 2010 will be the last version of Visual Studio to support Forms, and that future Forms development will be phased out in the same way that Microsoft phased out COM development, but my version of VB6 still works just dandy for maintaining legacy apps. Unless I am missing something, I don't see any reason to worry.
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http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-needs-to-tell-windows-8-developers-now-about-jupiter-and-silverlight/9608[^]
There is no failure only feedback
hmmm. Seems much ado about nothing. OTOH, Microsoft does have a history of abandoning frameworks when new ones come along (MFC, native C++ anyone?), but reading that article leads me to believe that's not what's happening with Silverlight. I bet Jupiter will turn out to be some superset of Silverlight. In my limited experience with Silverlight / XAML, while very cool, it seems a bit of overkill for 99% of applications. And since it seems mostly oriented (or aimed at) web apps, then it's competing with the HTML / Javascript "standards". Hence, it's understandable that Microsoft is saying HTML5 / Javascript is the future. They're admitting defeat.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
I haven't heard anything about it; my friends at Microsoft are all under NDAs. So I went and looked at the rampant speculation and.... Meh. I doubt very much that MS will abandon the Forms framework: if almost every existing Windows application becomes non-functional, the company will not survive the blow-back. As long as Windows 8 supports the Forms framework, we can continue to write Forms based applications. It may be that VS 2010 will be the last version of Visual Studio to support Forms, and that future Forms development will be phased out in the same way that Microsoft phased out COM development, but my version of VB6 still works just dandy for maintaining legacy apps. Unless I am missing something, I don't see any reason to worry.
Gregory.Gadow wrote:
missing something
Forms != Silverlight Forms != Jupiter Otherwise you are correct.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
hmmm. Seems much ado about nothing. OTOH, Microsoft does have a history of abandoning frameworks when new ones come along (MFC, native C++ anyone?), but reading that article leads me to believe that's not what's happening with Silverlight. I bet Jupiter will turn out to be some superset of Silverlight. In my limited experience with Silverlight / XAML, while very cool, it seems a bit of overkill for 99% of applications. And since it seems mostly oriented (or aimed at) web apps, then it's competing with the HTML / Javascript "standards". Hence, it's understandable that Microsoft is saying HTML5 / Javascript is the future. They're admitting defeat.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braunahmed zahmed wrote:
Seems much ado about nothing.
It's not nothing to people who make or are planning to make wpf or silverlight apps. It's not nothing to people who have invested heavily in c# when there is serious speculation Microsoft is throwing it's weight behind c++ *over* c# or vb.net (which will make some old timers here happy I'm sure). It's not nothing to people who do not want to use Javascript + HTML 5 for their main development language.
There is no failure only feedback
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I haven't heard anything about it; my friends at Microsoft are all under NDAs. So I went and looked at the rampant speculation and.... Meh. I doubt very much that MS will abandon the Forms framework: if almost every existing Windows application becomes non-functional, the company will not survive the blow-back. As long as Windows 8 supports the Forms framework, we can continue to write Forms based applications. It may be that VS 2010 will be the last version of Visual Studio to support Forms, and that future Forms development will be phased out in the same way that Microsoft phased out COM development, but my version of VB6 still works just dandy for maintaining legacy apps. Unless I am missing something, I don't see any reason to worry.
Forms is so far off the radar no one is even contemplating it at all in any of the speculation I've seen. We will never write another windows form app and are no longer doing new development in our old ones and that's been a pretty common point of view recently. You must be in a position where you are only maintaining, not new development?
There is no failure only feedback
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Gregory.Gadow wrote:
missing something
Forms != Silverlight Forms != Jupiter Otherwise you are correct.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunI found two articles that claimed Windows 8 would be based on and optimized for XAML-based applications, and framed the controversy as to whether it would fully support Forms-based applications. Other that that, I'm a bit in the dark as to what this controversy is about.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
Seems much ado about nothing.
It's not nothing to people who make or are planning to make wpf or silverlight apps. It's not nothing to people who have invested heavily in c# when there is serious speculation Microsoft is throwing it's weight behind c++ *over* c# or vb.net (which will make some old timers here happy I'm sure). It's not nothing to people who do not want to use Javascript + HTML 5 for their main development language.
There is no failure only feedback
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I visited here periodically all summer looking to see any discussion and barely a word, now with less than a week I see a lot of jokes and not much else. I'm getting a strong "meh" vibe here whenever it comes up. I can only attribute this to a lot of people who work in cubicles and don't have to bet their future of their own business on the outcome of this or perhaps many of you have already moved off of windows development and only come here out of habit or are planning on retiring soon or...? I mean if not *here* then *where*? This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
Well, it's more about bacon these days, but I share your frustration.
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Forms is so far off the radar no one is even contemplating it at all in any of the speculation I've seen. We will never write another windows form app and are no longer doing new development in our old ones and that's been a pretty common point of view recently. You must be in a position where you are only maintaining, not new development?
There is no failure only feedback
I do a fair bit of app development, actually, but entirely in-house for my company. The web programming I do mostly involves retrieving data and presenting it, so no Silverlight either. I have several friends who work at Microsoft (the advantage of living in Seattle) but they are under so many non-disclosure agreements that we just don't talk about what they are working on.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
Seems much ado about nothing.
It's not nothing to people who make or are planning to make wpf or silverlight apps. It's not nothing to people who have invested heavily in c# when there is serious speculation Microsoft is throwing it's weight behind c++ *over* c# or vb.net (which will make some old timers here happy I'm sure). It's not nothing to people who do not want to use Javascript + HTML 5 for their main development language.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
It's not nothing to people who ...
Certainly not. But I think you misunderstood my meaning. I get the strong impression that Jupiter will turn out to be much more than what has been rumored. See here[^]. Even if I'm wrong, Microsoft has historically supported prior frameworks in new versions of Windows even while "abandoning" the same. So at worst it will mean learning a new framework, or not. There are still many people who still develop in C++/MFC and have quite a lot of work and the salary to go with it.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Ditto. As for WTF WPF and Silverlight. Can't use the second here and no desire to use the first (which provides no added value to anything we do).
Just like that old Carly Simon song... "You're so funny, You probably think this joke is about you" My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.
GenJerDan wrote:
As for WTF WPF and Silverlight
+5 just for that :laugh:
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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Microsoft also thought we'd like Vista.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson My comedy.
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I visited here periodically all summer looking to see any discussion and barely a word, now with less than a week I see a lot of jokes and not much else. I'm getting a strong "meh" vibe here whenever it comes up. I can only attribute this to a lot of people who work in cubicles and don't have to bet their future of their own business on the outcome of this or perhaps many of you have already moved off of windows development and only come here out of habit or are planning on retiring soon or...? I mean if not *here* then *where*? This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
There is no failure only feedback
I work at a company that is predominantly XP still. I am fighting an uphill battle just to upgrade our servers to server 2008 from 2003 even though we HAVE to do so due to failing and expiring software, such as Great Plains( we have a really old version that is stopped support at end of year). Basically the win8 routine has little to no effect on me currently as I would be surprised to have more than a handful of win7 machines by the end of next year, much less anything higher. Personally my opinion is such: Unless you are a software shop of some sort, if you work for corporate somewhere, the whole thing is almost a moot point as most companies are very slow to upgrade. by the time a lot of companies get around to win8 there will probably be win12 out. If you are a software shop that needs to stay latest and greatest, then the only option is as always with MS... roll with the punches and get out the Google to learn it :-D
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
Seems much ado about nothing.
It's not nothing to people who make or are planning to make wpf or silverlight apps. It's not nothing to people who have invested heavily in c# when there is serious speculation Microsoft is throwing it's weight behind c++ *over* c# or vb.net (which will make some old timers here happy I'm sure). It's not nothing to people who do not want to use Javascript + HTML 5 for their main development language.
There is no failure only feedback
Not attempting to be snide: All of your "It's not nothing . . ." remarks are beautiful melodies to my ears. This from an 'old timer' who uses C++/JavaScript/php - and seriously resents when a website say I must download Silverlight to view it (I haven't and won't). Now, I do dabble in C#, but that's because of two factors:
- Microsoft has been very negligent with documentation/examples/etc. in C++, along with not bothering to include support for LINQ, etc.
- Those around who previously are using 'high level' languages (e.g., Visual FoxPro) have enough of their hands full with C#, let alone actually knowing what they're doing by using C++.
Indeed, if I didn't know better, I'd imagine MS is actually making the right decisions for a change. Clearly, you do not.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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John C wrote:
This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
Well, it's more about bacon these days, but I share your frustration.
What happened to this place? This kind of thing was discussed to death back in the day and analyzed every which way. Perhaps Microsoft has fractured the dev market so much that there is simply nothing left to rally around any more.
There is no failure only feedback
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I visited here periodically all summer looking to see any discussion and barely a word, now with less than a week I see a lot of jokes and not much else. I'm getting a strong "meh" vibe here whenever it comes up. I can only attribute this to a lot of people who work in cubicles and don't have to bet their future of their own business on the outcome of this or perhaps many of you have already moved off of windows development and only come here out of habit or are planning on retiring soon or...? I mean if not *here* then *where*? This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
jupiter controversy
Oh crap, they have started messing with planets... :doh:
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I work at a company that is predominantly XP still. I am fighting an uphill battle just to upgrade our servers to server 2008 from 2003 even though we HAVE to do so due to failing and expiring software, such as Great Plains( we have a really old version that is stopped support at end of year). Basically the win8 routine has little to no effect on me currently as I would be surprised to have more than a handful of win7 machines by the end of next year, much less anything higher. Personally my opinion is such: Unless you are a software shop of some sort, if you work for corporate somewhere, the whole thing is almost a moot point as most companies are very slow to upgrade. by the time a lot of companies get around to win8 there will probably be win12 out. If you are a software shop that needs to stay latest and greatest, then the only option is as always with MS... roll with the punches and get out the Google to learn it :-D
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
gavindon wrote:
Unless you are a software shop of some sort, if you work for corporate somewhere, the whole thing is almost a moot point as most companies are very slow to upgrade.
Excellent point! Back in the day everyone here cared about what Microsoft was doing, now, not so much. Perhaps the economy has a lot to do with it. The early .net days were boom times and there was a *lot* of continual buzz, now people don't seem to give a shit, they're just happy to have a job.
There is no failure only feedback
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Sorry if you lack the ability to decipher meaning from the statement, John. It actually has a point and expresses my opinion of the topic. Do you read sentences as a string of words, but don't actually interpret the context of the statement? If you still don't get it: Microsoft can try to force people to do what they want, but in the end the user has the final say. As with Vista, when nobody would fucking use it, they had to bail on it. I can see that happening here with W8, all they are doing is making W8 look less appealing.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson My comedy.
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What happened to this place? This kind of thing was discussed to death back in the day and analyzed every which way. Perhaps Microsoft has fractured the dev market so much that there is simply nothing left to rally around any more.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
What happened to this place? This kind of thing was discussed to death back in the day and analyzed every which way
Yep, which is why I rarely post in the Lounge these days. I guess you could have a pretty good discussion on this topic at programmers.stackexchange.com/[^] or some other site.
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Sorry if you lack the ability to decipher meaning from the statement, John. It actually has a point and expresses my opinion of the topic. Do you read sentences as a string of words, but don't actually interpret the context of the statement? If you still don't get it: Microsoft can try to force people to do what they want, but in the end the user has the final say. As with Vista, when nobody would fucking use it, they had to bail on it. I can see that happening here with W8, all they are doing is making W8 look less appealing.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson My comedy.
wizardzz wrote:
If you still don't get it
Much better thank you, I guess you were far too clever for me in your first post. I doubt this is that kind of situation. Microsoft is changing the very core of windows and how it works and it has far reaching implications on us developers and in short they simply don't care about us any more, they care far more about Apple and Google and responding to them. I read a good blog post about how even the mightiest companies are only about 3 years away from complete irrelevance when they seem to be doing very well and it's happened in the tech sector many times in the past. We'll see but I don't think there's any going back from what they are doing.
There is no failure only feedback