Anyone here actually care about Windows 8 and silverlight / wpf / jupiter controversy?
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Is there some claim out there that existing Win32 apps aren't going to run on W8? If not, then what the hell is the big deal? Or is this just more internot/idiot-o-sphere hype?
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Is there some claim out there that existing Win32 apps aren't going to run on W8?
I wouldn't worry about that. All MS Office client applications are pure Win32 with native C++.
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I haven't heard anything about it; my friends at Microsoft are all under NDAs. So I went and looked at the rampant speculation and.... Meh. I doubt very much that MS will abandon the Forms framework: if almost every existing Windows application becomes non-functional, the company will not survive the blow-back. As long as Windows 8 supports the Forms framework, we can continue to write Forms based applications. It may be that VS 2010 will be the last version of Visual Studio to support Forms, and that future Forms development will be phased out in the same way that Microsoft phased out COM development, but my version of VB6 still works just dandy for maintaining legacy apps. Unless I am missing something, I don't see any reason to worry.
Gregory.Gadow wrote:
Microsoft phased out COM development
Microsoft may not talk it up much, but check out the foundations of Windows - COM is alive and well there, and nothing, that I'm aware of, is going to replace that. Hide it, perhaps.
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What happened to this place? This kind of thing was discussed to death back in the day and analyzed every which way. Perhaps Microsoft has fractured the dev market so much that there is simply nothing left to rally around any more.
There is no failure only feedback
Maybe what's happened is that the endurance of XP has meant that Windows churn, in terms of new stuff that you *HAD* to install, has slowed down? Vista uptake was pretty slow (non-existent in some places like mine), W7 is slow as well. Maybe that's meant that a whole lot of optional technologies, like WPF, WCF, Silverlight, etc have arisen, but not really had a compelling enough reason for *everyone* to jump on board. In the meantime you've got web apps with their half assed, sort-of-but-not-really-duct-tape-and-bubblegum frameworks that allow you to cobble together "solutions" of sorts. You've got stuff with as many *cons* as pros, and maybe people just lose interest, or enthusiasm.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Is there some claim out there that existing Win32 apps aren't going to run on W8?
I wouldn't worry about that. All MS Office client applications are pure Win32 with native C++.
That's what I thought. Hence I'm not sure what all the fuss is. Unless those that put all their eggs in Redmond's language/framework-du-jour basket are now pissed that they've gotten burned (again).
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An MS talking head said (paraphrasing from memory) that "HTML5 will be the language for developing win8 style apps". Despite the bloviator not being a dev and not talking to an audience of devs, many people assumed that it meant that C++/.net/etc would only be usable for legacy style applications. MS didn't help by refusing to officially comment; although MS employees gradually released sanity via back channels over a few days after it became clear MS wasn't going to officially tell chicken little he was wrong.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Huh?! Does no one pay any attention to what goes on (I'm not talking about you of course). "HTML5 will be the language for developing win8 style apps" Clearly that's simply an absurd statement. Apple tried that with the iPhone when it was first released and *everyone* thought it was completely stupid from day one. And within days (weeks?) of it's release people were reverse engineering the ObjC frameworks so they could actually write real programs for it, as opposed to the HTML/javascript horsehit.
Dan Neely wrote:
many people assumed that it meant that C++/.net/etc would only be usable for legacy style applications.
Also absurd. How people would draw that conclusion from the previous statement is beyond me. It's like claiming that 2+2 = 5, therefore proving that 3/2 is an imaginary number. WTF? :wtf:
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Sounds somewhat interesting but there's so much conjecture, rumor and blather in that article that it's hard to know what to make of it.
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Code Monkey-Man wrote:
to apps built in HTML/JavaScript.
The common toothpick is superior to this. You're setting the bar pretty low there... :rolleyes:
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:-D
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I visited here periodically all summer looking to see any discussion and barely a word, now with less than a week I see a lot of jokes and not much else. I'm getting a strong "meh" vibe here whenever it comes up. I can only attribute this to a lot of people who work in cubicles and don't have to bet their future of their own business on the outcome of this or perhaps many of you have already moved off of windows development and only come here out of habit or are planning on retiring soon or...? I mean if not *here* then *where*? This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
There is no failure only feedback
Why I should give a damn? No, really, why? Is this going to change something? I’m experienced in C, C++, Java, Delphi, C#, Transact SQL and PL SQL. Regarding my experience learning a new technology in an acceptable level takes me one-two months top. And that includes technologies as COM. So no, I could care less about the whole shit.
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Huh?! Does no one pay any attention to what goes on (I'm not talking about you of course). "HTML5 will be the language for developing win8 style apps" Clearly that's simply an absurd statement. Apple tried that with the iPhone when it was first released and *everyone* thought it was completely stupid from day one. And within days (weeks?) of it's release people were reverse engineering the ObjC frameworks so they could actually write real programs for it, as opposed to the HTML/javascript horsehit.
Dan Neely wrote:
many people assumed that it meant that C++/.net/etc would only be usable for legacy style applications.
Also absurd. How people would draw that conclusion from the previous statement is beyond me. It's like claiming that 2+2 = 5, therefore proving that 3/2 is an imaginary number. WTF? :wtf:
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Jim Crafton wrote:
How people would draw that conclusion from the previous statement is beyond me.
Paranoia, fueled by MS's refusal to issue even a nominal clarification ("Talking head misspoke, HTML5 is one language that will be used. For more details wait until Build.") that would've squashed it. A year ago MS threw out 100% of legacy apps with WP7. MS is also the company who thought WinME and Vista were good platforms when in launched them, so the OS div is known to be capable of major blunders.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Jim Crafton wrote:
How people would draw that conclusion from the previous statement is beyond me.
Paranoia, fueled by MS's refusal to issue even a nominal clarification ("Talking head misspoke, HTML5 is one language that will be used. For more details wait until Build.") that would've squashed it. A year ago MS threw out 100% of legacy apps with WP7. MS is also the company who thought WinME and Vista were good platforms when in launched them, so the OS div is known to be capable of major blunders.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Well in this case I don't blame MS. There should be some minimal expectation that people who claim to be developers *think* just a little. Obviously that's not the case here :)
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Well in this case I don't blame MS. There should be some minimal expectation that people who claim to be developers *think* just a little. Obviously that's not the case here :)
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This is the internet we're talking about. Chicken Little was an optimist. :sigh: At the same time, how many other tech companies would be boneheaded enough to let a misstatement be turned into a giant pile of FUD/PR against their flagship product?
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Luke cared too, and look where it got him...turned out Leia was his sister all this time. Think of how screwed up he must felt. Think he had any dreams of delivering the bacon after that?
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If the bun hair style didn't put him off, the incest certainly wasn't going to stop him.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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If the bun hair style didn't put him off, the incest certainly wasn't going to stop him.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Be nice! The bun wasn't that bad.
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I visited here periodically all summer looking to see any discussion and barely a word, now with less than a week I see a lot of jokes and not much else. I'm getting a strong "meh" vibe here whenever it comes up. I can only attribute this to a lot of people who work in cubicles and don't have to bet their future of their own business on the outcome of this or perhaps many of you have already moved off of windows development and only come here out of habit or are planning on retiring soon or...? I mean if not *here* then *where*? This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
There is no failure only feedback
... edited to remove content I regretted having said ... Au contraire, there have been several excellent discussions here on the topic of the future of various Windows technologies, and Pete O'Hanlon has often initiated them, or, guided them once they started. Pete's blog has also covered this in depth (he's truly rare because he gave up his MVP from MS rather than go into 'straight-jacket' NDA's). Factors contributing to the non-gossip about whatever will be (partially ?, fully ?) revealed at BUILD shortly ... on CP ... well, here are a few hypotheses: 0. There is actually NO clarity ... yet ... about the exact future and interaction of these technologies (WinForms, WPF, SilverLight). The fact that one of the "divisions" in the organizational map revealed by Sinofsky is named 'XAML' suggests something: but what ? 1. Many of the people (here on CP) who could make the most profound comments are, indeed, under NDA's: those agreements are vital to their business futures, and family's welfare, and they are being responsible and cautious. Their restraint is judicious. 2. Many other industry pundits are also under NDA's. Or, are "compromised" in some way into keeping mum in expectation of future perks and favors. If you believe in "journalistic integrity" in the area of high-tech reporting, I hope you keep your chimney clean for Santa Claus every day of the year. 3. There always has been, and will be, fierce inter-group competition within Microsoft, both within technical groups, across divisions, between executives, etc. That competition can lead to FUD and murk, as well premature announcements that amount to "positioning," and "mind-share" plays. 'Twas Ever Thus' : Mr. Natural. 4. Human error: the initial 'shock and awe' reaction to the 'lifting of the veil' around Win8 where what seem to .NET developers critical news about the future role of SL, WPF, etc. was left out, could have well been just a managerial f-up by those denizens of the nether worlds of PowerPoint. 5. And now, for you 'conspiracy buffs:' it's all a game being played by master-minds to tantalize the universe, and to lead up to a blinding revelation at BUILD that will leave us all either 'out of our bodies' or immediately converted to some new technology that uses hieroglphys, not words, for programming and is based entirely on Kinect input, not typing I would assert that the absence of 'wild speculation' on these topics here on CP is a sign of the community's rationality, dis
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... edited to remove content I regretted having said ... Au contraire, there have been several excellent discussions here on the topic of the future of various Windows technologies, and Pete O'Hanlon has often initiated them, or, guided them once they started. Pete's blog has also covered this in depth (he's truly rare because he gave up his MVP from MS rather than go into 'straight-jacket' NDA's). Factors contributing to the non-gossip about whatever will be (partially ?, fully ?) revealed at BUILD shortly ... on CP ... well, here are a few hypotheses: 0. There is actually NO clarity ... yet ... about the exact future and interaction of these technologies (WinForms, WPF, SilverLight). The fact that one of the "divisions" in the organizational map revealed by Sinofsky is named 'XAML' suggests something: but what ? 1. Many of the people (here on CP) who could make the most profound comments are, indeed, under NDA's: those agreements are vital to their business futures, and family's welfare, and they are being responsible and cautious. Their restraint is judicious. 2. Many other industry pundits are also under NDA's. Or, are "compromised" in some way into keeping mum in expectation of future perks and favors. If you believe in "journalistic integrity" in the area of high-tech reporting, I hope you keep your chimney clean for Santa Claus every day of the year. 3. There always has been, and will be, fierce inter-group competition within Microsoft, both within technical groups, across divisions, between executives, etc. That competition can lead to FUD and murk, as well premature announcements that amount to "positioning," and "mind-share" plays. 'Twas Ever Thus' : Mr. Natural. 4. Human error: the initial 'shock and awe' reaction to the 'lifting of the veil' around Win8 where what seem to .NET developers critical news about the future role of SL, WPF, etc. was left out, could have well been just a managerial f-up by those denizens of the nether worlds of PowerPoint. 5. And now, for you 'conspiracy buffs:' it's all a game being played by master-minds to tantalize the universe, and to lead up to a blinding revelation at BUILD that will leave us all either 'out of our bodies' or immediately converted to some new technology that uses hieroglphys, not words, for programming and is based entirely on Kinect input, not typing I would assert that the absence of 'wild speculation' on these topics here on CP is a sign of the community's rationality, dis
...Edited to remove content responding to content Bill regretted having said... I have spent a *lot* of time over the last few months poring over the various "tea leaves" surrounding this issue. I've read everything from posts by former Microsoft insiders who have quite a bit of knowledge on the subject to industry journal speculation to reports and posts from people who have decompiled many key files in the Windows 8 previews. I've never known so much about the internal workings of Microsoft in all my years developing on Microsoft platforms. I've read probably upwards of a thousand online posts from people who are affected in many different ways. On average I'd say at least every second day I research the topic and have for months because it's absolutely critical to myself, my business, my shareholders and my customers. I have brought it up a few times here directly and indirectly in the last six months or so (because CodeProject has traditionally, for myself at least, been *the* go to place for this kind of discussion) and been met with minimal interest which is odd because there is *tremendous* interest in other places where developers congregate and this has traditionally been a community where people cared about the direction of Microsoft and development on the Windows platform and such discussion was welcomed and encouraged and perhaps most importantly enjoyed. I fully understand some people are under NDA's though I suspect it's a vanishingly small percentage of the population here. I made this original post in the hopes of finding out what's changed in the CodeProject community that there would be so little apparent interest in what is looking to be a sea change in how we should be developing apps for windows going forward (or indeed if we should be considering other options). There are *plenty* of useful things that could be discussed about this issue and in fact are being discussed elsewhere and it's been quite interesting to read which again, makes me wonder at the lack of interest here. ...edited to remove content Bill regretted having said...
There is no failure only feedback
modified on Friday, September 9, 2011 11:37 AM
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...Edited to remove content responding to content Bill regretted having said... I have spent a *lot* of time over the last few months poring over the various "tea leaves" surrounding this issue. I've read everything from posts by former Microsoft insiders who have quite a bit of knowledge on the subject to industry journal speculation to reports and posts from people who have decompiled many key files in the Windows 8 previews. I've never known so much about the internal workings of Microsoft in all my years developing on Microsoft platforms. I've read probably upwards of a thousand online posts from people who are affected in many different ways. On average I'd say at least every second day I research the topic and have for months because it's absolutely critical to myself, my business, my shareholders and my customers. I have brought it up a few times here directly and indirectly in the last six months or so (because CodeProject has traditionally, for myself at least, been *the* go to place for this kind of discussion) and been met with minimal interest which is odd because there is *tremendous* interest in other places where developers congregate and this has traditionally been a community where people cared about the direction of Microsoft and development on the Windows platform and such discussion was welcomed and encouraged and perhaps most importantly enjoyed. I fully understand some people are under NDA's though I suspect it's a vanishingly small percentage of the population here. I made this original post in the hopes of finding out what's changed in the CodeProject community that there would be so little apparent interest in what is looking to be a sea change in how we should be developing apps for windows going forward (or indeed if we should be considering other options). There are *plenty* of useful things that could be discussed about this issue and in fact are being discussed elsewhere and it's been quite interesting to read which again, makes me wonder at the lack of interest here. ...edited to remove content Bill regretted having said...
There is no failure only feedback
modified on Friday, September 9, 2011 11:37 AM
First, I apologize; I "teed-off" on your post much too vehemently. I have edited my original post to remove content that may be "inflammatory" and ad hominem. I still don't like the tone of your original post, and its implications, but reading this comment I sure understand better where you are coming from, and I wish the content of this comment were in your original post. best, Bill
"Is it a fact - or have I dreamt it - that, by means of electricity, the world of matter has become a great nerve, vibrating thousands of miles in a breathless point of time? Rather, the round globe is a vast head, a brain, instinct with intelligence!" - Nathanial Hawthorne, House of the Seven Gables
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I visited here periodically all summer looking to see any discussion and barely a word, now with less than a week I see a lot of jokes and not much else. I'm getting a strong "meh" vibe here whenever it comes up. I can only attribute this to a lot of people who work in cubicles and don't have to bet their future of their own business on the outcome of this or perhaps many of you have already moved off of windows development and only come here out of habit or are planning on retiring soon or...? I mean if not *here* then *where*? This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
There is no failure only feedback
Yes I'm waiting eagerly to find out what GUI framework I'm going to be code against next. I'm programmer support in prototyping / research type area. So the useful lifetime of the apps I write isn't alway that long. Most of the code I write though is the logic and data handling code with a well defined interface for the GUI side of things to use. Changing the GUI framework to something else isn't really too big of task - designing the look and feel is the hardest bit, coding it is nothing.
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I visited here periodically all summer looking to see any discussion and barely a word, now with less than a week I see a lot of jokes and not much else. I'm getting a strong "meh" vibe here whenever it comes up. I can only attribute this to a lot of people who work in cubicles and don't have to bet their future of their own business on the outcome of this or perhaps many of you have already moved off of windows development and only come here out of habit or are planning on retiring soon or...? I mean if not *here* then *where*? This is traditionally a windows centric development site.
There is no failure only feedback
I'm not worried for several reasons: - there is a dedicated XAML team in the windows team (I don't care about the names 'wpf' and 'silverlight', it's XAML that I love, and clearly - msft sees great value in that technology) - This controversy really isn't a controversy at all. It's just drama queens on the internet who heared the buzzwords "html5" and "javascript" and then went on to make a bunch of unfounded assumptions and posting rants on silverlight forums. Based on nothing whatsoever. - currently existing .NET applications will be the easiest to port to ARM devices. All that needs to happen is porting the .NET framework (which msft will OBVIOUSLY do) and recompiling your project for ARM. It's quite obvious that .NET will remain very important. What I expect the future to be like: For big, intense/advanced applications you'll use a native language (think photoshop, fat games, 3d max,...) For LOB applications, you'll use .NET and Xaml/ASP/html5. For stupid 1$ applications (or "apps" :confused: ) that nobody needs but everybody wants, you'll use .NET, silverlight or HTML5. I'm guessing you don't see much discussion about this here, because generally, this site is filled with pretty mature professionals instead of immature drama queens. :-)
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Not attempting to be snide: All of your "It's not nothing . . ." remarks are beautiful melodies to my ears. This from an 'old timer' who uses C++/JavaScript/php - and seriously resents when a website say I must download Silverlight to view it (I haven't and won't). Now, I do dabble in C#, but that's because of two factors:
- Microsoft has been very negligent with documentation/examples/etc. in C++, along with not bothering to include support for LINQ, etc.
- Those around who previously are using 'high level' languages (e.g., Visual FoxPro) have enough of their hands full with C#, let alone actually knowing what they're doing by using C++.
Indeed, if I didn't know better, I'd imagine MS is actually making the right decisions for a change. Clearly, you do not.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I am an old timer too, but I love Silverlight in a web page. So far, it worked for me quite well and it never displays that "Press ESC..." annoying message when going full screen. It is also the only technology that allows for relatively safe advanced things like processing local files from a web page.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
Seems much ado about nothing.
It's not nothing to people who make or are planning to make wpf or silverlight apps. It's not nothing to people who have invested heavily in c# when there is serious speculation Microsoft is throwing it's weight behind c++ *over* c# or vb.net (which will make some old timers here happy I'm sure). It's not nothing to people who do not want to use Javascript + HTML 5 for their main development language.
There is no failure only feedback
If those people are as dedicated as the VB6 people (or Visual FoxPro ones) I wouldn't worry. With what they have now in terms of tools, framework they can survive long past any shit move µSoft will pull. Silverlight 5 and WPF 4 are sufficiently mature to allow a good programmer build stuff the meets the market's demand at any time. There's so much potential in the current versions of these frameworks that µSoft would have to actually block the execution of such applications in order to stop them from proliferating for the next 10 years at least. Don't worry, be happy.
giuchici