Is it better to fear or respect your parents?
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I grew up fearing my father rather than respecting him. Which lends to the question, is spanking an acceptable form of discipline? My father knew no other way of discipline then hitting me. Some may argue with me here on "technical" grounds but IMVHO, I consider spanking to be hitting (pain is always involved and is the key motivating factor). I don't spank my children...at all. I have found other, more effective means of discipline, without inflicting physical pain and psychological damage. I would rather have my children respect me, than fear me. My belief again, is that you don't need to inflict physical pain on a child to ensure that they grow up to be well rounded and productive individuals in society. Kind of a deep, heavy topic for a Thursday morning (U.S. time) I know but one that has been on my mind as of late. -- cheers.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)Pussy political correctness. Nothing wrong with a good flogging, teaches them right from wrong, early on the old talky talky shit is a waste of time, when old enough to understand most don't give a fuck. But a good flogging lets them know they fucked up. Reckon the world would be a much better place if schools bought back the cane and the police could give you a kick in the arse to scare the shit out of you. Both hapened to me along with floggings when I fucked up at home and it didn't hurt me in the long run. Any character flaws or problems I have are caused by many other things that have happened over my life, corporal punishment was a constant that let me know my boundaries. Funnily enough I kept going back to those boundaries over and over and if not for the pain I would have gone over them.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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I grew up fearing my father rather than respecting him. Which lends to the question, is spanking an acceptable form of discipline? My father knew no other way of discipline then hitting me. Some may argue with me here on "technical" grounds but IMVHO, I consider spanking to be hitting (pain is always involved and is the key motivating factor). I don't spank my children...at all. I have found other, more effective means of discipline, without inflicting physical pain and psychological damage. I would rather have my children respect me, than fear me. My belief again, is that you don't need to inflict physical pain on a child to ensure that they grow up to be well rounded and productive individuals in society. Kind of a deep, heavy topic for a Thursday morning (U.S. time) I know but one that has been on my mind as of late. -- cheers.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)Difficult topic. Hitting is wrong. In rare occasions I do 'tap' my son eg on his hands for example to set his attention to the fact that the hand is not were is should be. (eg in the drawer were there are knives, which probably can lead to another discussion altogether whether you want to protect your kids from danger or learn them handle it ;-)) The 'tap' does NOT hurt, but it does give him a startle. When he gets older (he's 18 months now) I don't think tapping will work anymore, so I'll have to find alternative means (no TV when he's young, no going out when he's older, ... ;-)). So punishing changes depending on age, but hurting is never an option, however always rewarding isn't either (new discussion point) Anyway good to see some people still have som common sense. yesterday I saw a youtube video about a judge that hit his daughter with a belt :wtf:
V.
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People follow guidelines/rules either out of fear or out of respect. Since kids can't recognize respect, yet, fear it must be. There is a thin line between abusing and being stern. Many parents are guilty of abuse but that's the problem with the individuals and not the method. A good parent will tell their kids why they were punished to let the kids know they are facing tough love more than anything else. Such a parent would also switch quickly from spanking to imposing soft authority like taking away privileges within a few years. The whole psychological damage thing is quite misplaced I feel. We read too much into it. Many cultures, especially Asian and Indian, spank their kids routinely. I don't believe there exists a single person who's grown in that culture that wasn't spanked growing up. How many have faced psychological damage? Well, one could say millions damaged in a billion would be hard to spot, but I don't feel so.
Signature is a waste of time. I'll have one when I've got enough time to create. Well, I had enough a few seconds back.
I think you're mistaken as to what "psychological damage" means. It doesn't mean being crazy or paranoid or such extremes. It can mean difficulties trusting people, sharing things, establishing stable relationships, keeping a good job, etc... Being "psychologically damaged" can mean lack of confidence, lack of self esteem, lack of self motivation, etc... All that can be caused by any kind of abuse by the parents, be it verbal or physical, for instance constant depreciative talking, unjust punishments, etc... Note: that doesn't mean I'd let my kid(s) do whatever they want and never forbid anything, and I don't have a perfect behavior myself, but I try my best to consider what a (young) child is capable of (in terms of understanding, remembering, etc...) before "passing judgment".
'As programmers go, I'm fairly social. Which still means I'm a borderline sociopath by normal standards.' Jeff Atwood 'I'm French! Why do you think I've got this outrrrrageous accent?' Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Pussy political correctness. Nothing wrong with a good flogging, teaches them right from wrong, early on the old talky talky shit is a waste of time, when old enough to understand most don't give a fuck. But a good flogging lets them know they fucked up. Reckon the world would be a much better place if schools bought back the cane and the police could give you a kick in the arse to scare the shit out of you. Both hapened to me along with floggings when I fucked up at home and it didn't hurt me in the long run. Any character flaws or problems I have are caused by many other things that have happened over my life, corporal punishment was a constant that let me know my boundaries. Funnily enough I kept going back to those boundaries over and over and if not for the pain I would have gone over them.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
and you are an angry fuck. you are always angry, you drink too much, and you bitch and complain about everything. I wonder where all your anger and hostility started from? By the way, political correctness has absolutely nothing to do with my reasons or motivations for how I do things. As always, good talking to you. :)
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
I grew up fearing my father rather than respecting him. Which lends to the question, is spanking an acceptable form of discipline? My father knew no other way of discipline then hitting me. Some may argue with me here on "technical" grounds but IMVHO, I consider spanking to be hitting (pain is always involved and is the key motivating factor). I don't spank my children...at all. I have found other, more effective means of discipline, without inflicting physical pain and psychological damage. I would rather have my children respect me, than fear me. My belief again, is that you don't need to inflict physical pain on a child to ensure that they grow up to be well rounded and productive individuals in society. Kind of a deep, heavy topic for a Thursday morning (U.S. time) I know but one that has been on my mind as of late. -- cheers.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
I think you're mistaken as to what "psychological damage" means. It doesn't mean being crazy or paranoid or such extremes. It can mean difficulties trusting people, sharing things, establishing stable relationships, keeping a good job, etc... Being "psychologically damaged" can mean lack of confidence, lack of self esteem, lack of self motivation, etc... All that can be caused by any kind of abuse by the parents, be it verbal or physical, for instance constant depreciative talking, unjust punishments, etc... Note: that doesn't mean I'd let my kid(s) do whatever they want and never forbid anything, and I don't have a perfect behavior myself, but I try my best to consider what a (young) child is capable of (in terms of understanding, remembering, etc...) before "passing judgment".
'As programmers go, I'm fairly social. Which still means I'm a borderline sociopath by normal standards.' Jeff Atwood 'I'm French! Why do you think I've got this outrrrrageous accent?' Monty Python and the Holy Grail
How do you know how I defined "psychological damage"? Strangely, for a person who tells me to not pass judgement, you do the same. It is really up to the kid to hate the parent or not for whatever means of punishment that is given to them. So the psychological damage could result by any means that the kid doesn't like to be treated. Taking away privilages like tv or videogames, when that is the most cherished thing to them at that age, is no less than hiting. (By hitting I don't mean slave master hitting, which is what all the politically correct uptight parents seemm to think.) You are ultimately making the kid not like you.
Signature is a waste of time. I'll have one when I've got enough time to create. Well, I had enough a few seconds back.
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I grew up fearing my father rather than respecting him. Which lends to the question, is spanking an acceptable form of discipline? My father knew no other way of discipline then hitting me. Some may argue with me here on "technical" grounds but IMVHO, I consider spanking to be hitting (pain is always involved and is the key motivating factor). I don't spank my children...at all. I have found other, more effective means of discipline, without inflicting physical pain and psychological damage. I would rather have my children respect me, than fear me. My belief again, is that you don't need to inflict physical pain on a child to ensure that they grow up to be well rounded and productive individuals in society. Kind of a deep, heavy topic for a Thursday morning (U.S. time) I know but one that has been on my mind as of late. -- cheers.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)For me, there wasn't one spanking I received as a child that I didn't deserve, and knew I did something wrong before the punishment. I just went and did it anyway.
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I grew up fearing my father rather than respecting him. Which lends to the question, is spanking an acceptable form of discipline? My father knew no other way of discipline then hitting me. Some may argue with me here on "technical" grounds but IMVHO, I consider spanking to be hitting (pain is always involved and is the key motivating factor). I don't spank my children...at all. I have found other, more effective means of discipline, without inflicting physical pain and psychological damage. I would rather have my children respect me, than fear me. My belief again, is that you don't need to inflict physical pain on a child to ensure that they grow up to be well rounded and productive individuals in society. Kind of a deep, heavy topic for a Thursday morning (U.S. time) I know but one that has been on my mind as of late. -- cheers.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
I grew up fearing my father rather than respecting him. Which lends to the question, is spanking an acceptable form of discipline? My father knew no other way of discipline then hitting me. Some may argue with me here on "technical" grounds but IMVHO, I consider spanking to be hitting (pain is always involved and is the key motivating factor). I don't spank my children...at all. I have found other, more effective means of discipline, without inflicting physical pain and psychological damage. I would rather have my children respect me, than fear me. My belief again, is that you don't need to inflict physical pain on a child to ensure that they grow up to be well rounded and productive individuals in society. Kind of a deep, heavy topic for a Thursday morning (U.S. time) I know but one that has been on my mind as of late. -- cheers.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
I grew up fearing my father rather than respecting him. Which lends to the question, is spanking an acceptable form of discipline? My father knew no other way of discipline then hitting me. Some may argue with me here on "technical" grounds but IMVHO, I consider spanking to be hitting (pain is always involved and is the key motivating factor). I don't spank my children...at all. I have found other, more effective means of discipline, without inflicting physical pain and psychological damage. I would rather have my children respect me, than fear me. My belief again, is that you don't need to inflict physical pain on a child to ensure that they grow up to be well rounded and productive individuals in society. Kind of a deep, heavy topic for a Thursday morning (U.S. time) I know but one that has been on my mind as of late. -- cheers.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)I have never, and hope I never will hit The Boy (tm) My parents never really hit me (I remember one occasion when I followed my dad across a busy road without looking - luckily my Mum grabbed my collar, yanked me back to the pavement, and thwacked my legs. When I had finished crying, she calmly explained to me that she'd hit me because she was scared - I was nearly hit by a car. That lesson has stayed with me (as you can see, for nearly 50 years!) I feel that if my parents had hit me frequently, the lesson would have been less well learned. Our neighbor frequently spanks her kids. not brutal, just a 'flying spank' usually. But it is surely obvious it does no good - because she persists in doing it! Any form of deterrent needs to work, and for kids needs to be consistent. To The Boy (tm) having me or mum disappointed in him for bad behaviour (or a forgotten chore, whatever) is bad enough. He gets worried when he knows he's done something that he'll be shouted at (in his mind, being talked to sternly is being shouted at). Now he's not the best 'behaved' little boy (he told me the other day he is the third naughtiest in his class - although the teacher disagreed, and joked he could be 2nd :)He talks incessantly which gets him into trouble at school, but the punishment at school is a 3 strikes and you go sit in the kitchen on a stool for 1 minute for every year of your age. and it works. I honestly cannot see that it can do anyone any good hitting a child as a punishment or deterrent. And if you hit your kid for, say, breaking something, then how can you tell that same kid later that it's not OK to hit someone else who breaks something of theirs? I was given the occasional thwack at school - but I was far more deeply affected when I felt i lost the respect of one of the 'good' teachers for playing up (Maxxx, he said, I'm disappointed in you. Then turned and left me standing there, with no punishment. I felt like shit, and went to the staff room later to apologize.) The teachers that thwacked were pretty much a challenge to see if you could get away with it. with the odd exception (cutting off a rapist's dangly bits, for example) I don't really think inflicting pain on anyone for anything elicits an acceptable solution
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's a
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and you are an angry fuck. you are always angry, you drink too much, and you bitch and complain about everything. I wonder where all your anger and hostility started from? By the way, political correctness has absolutely nothing to do with my reasons or motivations for how I do things. As always, good talking to you. :)
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)Slacker007 wrote:
and you are an angry f***. you are always angry,
Why yes, yes I am.
Slacker007 wrote:
you drink too much,
I'm Australian, I barey drink enough.
Slacker007 wrote:
and you bitch and complain about everything.
You need to go back and check my posts, I only complain about Yankee land, their inability to spell or form a cognitive phrase. I could care less.
Slacker007 wrote:
By the way, political correctness has absolutely nothing to do with my reasons or motivations for how I do things.
You must be very, very lonely over there, you'd be the only Yank that isn't driven by political correctness.
Slacker007 wrote:
As always, good talking to you. :)
Why yes, yes it is.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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and you are an angry fuck. you are always angry, you drink too much, and you bitch and complain about everything. I wonder where all your anger and hostility started from? By the way, political correctness has absolutely nothing to do with my reasons or motivations for how I do things. As always, good talking to you. :)
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)I find it quite amuzing (and scary) how many people will say "My parents beat the snot out of me. Look at me I am OK" And you sit there looking at them and think, Uhhhh yeah. :thumbsup: Good job big guy. Now if you could just get your head out of your arse and look around you would see that most people think you are a total douche. Seriously though. Its like all those FB posts "If you blah blah blah and did this stupid blah blah blah, repost because you turned out OK" What kind of argument is that? Shouldn't your neighbors, siblings, friends, children, spouce be the ones to post "You are OK"? Yeah maybe you are not depressed and cowering in the corner, but if you are a total tool than clearly something in your life went wrong. How does one know they are OK? I mean I feel fine, but 100 years from now maybe a team will analyze my journals, blogs etc. and determine I am a total nut job. Or maybe they will determine we were all total nut jobs. Simply put it is just a stupid argument to say "I did it an I am OK" or "It happend to me and I am OK". To me its like the argument "Well thats how we have done it, and it has worked in the past." Times change. People change. Society changes. Children change. Punishments change. 20 years ago kids weren't dependent on half (er... almost all) the tech out there. Why not take advantage of that dependency and treat it as a privalage, thus creating room for punishment. Just seems more effective IMO, and actually teaches the child lessons about life.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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I think it's better to have no kids, then you won't sit with this moral dilemma.
Ego non sum semper iustus tamen Ego sum nunquam nefas!
But we intellegent people must procreate or the world will end up like Idiocracy[^]... Then again, its probably too late.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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For me, there wasn't one spanking I received as a child that I didn't deserve, and knew I did something wrong before the punishment. I just went and did it anyway.
So then you should ask yourself, was the punishment actually effective? I mean was there something your parents could have been doing that would have detterred some of your "wrong" activities?
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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I have never, and hope I never will hit The Boy (tm) My parents never really hit me (I remember one occasion when I followed my dad across a busy road without looking - luckily my Mum grabbed my collar, yanked me back to the pavement, and thwacked my legs. When I had finished crying, she calmly explained to me that she'd hit me because she was scared - I was nearly hit by a car. That lesson has stayed with me (as you can see, for nearly 50 years!) I feel that if my parents had hit me frequently, the lesson would have been less well learned. Our neighbor frequently spanks her kids. not brutal, just a 'flying spank' usually. But it is surely obvious it does no good - because she persists in doing it! Any form of deterrent needs to work, and for kids needs to be consistent. To The Boy (tm) having me or mum disappointed in him for bad behaviour (or a forgotten chore, whatever) is bad enough. He gets worried when he knows he's done something that he'll be shouted at (in his mind, being talked to sternly is being shouted at). Now he's not the best 'behaved' little boy (he told me the other day he is the third naughtiest in his class - although the teacher disagreed, and joked he could be 2nd :)He talks incessantly which gets him into trouble at school, but the punishment at school is a 3 strikes and you go sit in the kitchen on a stool for 1 minute for every year of your age. and it works. I honestly cannot see that it can do anyone any good hitting a child as a punishment or deterrent. And if you hit your kid for, say, breaking something, then how can you tell that same kid later that it's not OK to hit someone else who breaks something of theirs? I was given the occasional thwack at school - but I was far more deeply affected when I felt i lost the respect of one of the 'good' teachers for playing up (Maxxx, he said, I'm disappointed in you. Then turned and left me standing there, with no punishment. I felt like shit, and went to the staff room later to apologize.) The teachers that thwacked were pretty much a challenge to see if you could get away with it. with the odd exception (cutting off a rapist's dangly bits, for example) I don't really think inflicting pain on anyone for anything elicits an acceptable solution
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's a
_Maxxx_ wrote:
And if you hit your kid for, say, breaking something, then how can you tell that same kid later that it's not OK to hit someone else who breaks something of theirs?
I think that is what alot of the "My parents beat me, I am OK" people miss the point. They often they had social quirks that took years too get past. They don't even know it (rarely do people know they are quirky). I don't see punishment as just being punishment. It is how you are teaching your child to handle when others misbehave or do things they don't like as well. You spank/hit your kid, they will likely do the same to their younger sibling or smaller friends. You teach them verbal and mental punishments (like you said you felt so bad with the teach that said "I am disappointed" in you), they will cary that in their life and use those skills.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Slacker007 wrote:
and you are an angry f***. you are always angry,
Why yes, yes I am.
Slacker007 wrote:
you drink too much,
I'm Australian, I barey drink enough.
Slacker007 wrote:
and you bitch and complain about everything.
You need to go back and check my posts, I only complain about Yankee land, their inability to spell or form a cognitive phrase. I could care less.
Slacker007 wrote:
By the way, political correctness has absolutely nothing to do with my reasons or motivations for how I do things.
You must be very, very lonely over there, you'd be the only Yank that isn't driven by political correctness.
Slacker007 wrote:
As always, good talking to you. :)
Why yes, yes it is.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
Michael Martin wrote:
You must be very, very lonely over there, you'd be the only Yank that isn't driven by political correctness.
no. i am not lonely. many people here in Yankeeland share the same views as me. I love being a Yankee, if not for any other reason, then to piss off people like you.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011) -
I grew up fearing my father rather than respecting him. Which lends to the question, is spanking an acceptable form of discipline? My father knew no other way of discipline then hitting me. Some may argue with me here on "technical" grounds but IMVHO, I consider spanking to be hitting (pain is always involved and is the key motivating factor). I don't spank my children...at all. I have found other, more effective means of discipline, without inflicting physical pain and psychological damage. I would rather have my children respect me, than fear me. My belief again, is that you don't need to inflict physical pain on a child to ensure that they grow up to be well rounded and productive individuals in society. Kind of a deep, heavy topic for a Thursday morning (U.S. time) I know but one that has been on my mind as of late. -- cheers.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)There is nothing that spanking accomplishes that can't be handled more effectively with other means.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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There is nothing that spanking accomplishes that can't be handled more effectively with other means.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
Andy Brummer wrote:
There is nothing that spanking accomplishes that can't be handled more effectively with other means.
Well now that actually depends on your pleasures. :-O Oh wait, you are talking about spanking kids ;P
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Andy Brummer wrote:
There is nothing that spanking accomplishes that can't be handled more effectively with other means.
Well now that actually depends on your pleasures. :-O Oh wait, you are talking about spanking kids ;P
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
:laugh: +5
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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I grew up fearing my father rather than respecting him. Which lends to the question, is spanking an acceptable form of discipline? My father knew no other way of discipline then hitting me. Some may argue with me here on "technical" grounds but IMVHO, I consider spanking to be hitting (pain is always involved and is the key motivating factor). I don't spank my children...at all. I have found other, more effective means of discipline, without inflicting physical pain and psychological damage. I would rather have my children respect me, than fear me. My belief again, is that you don't need to inflict physical pain on a child to ensure that they grow up to be well rounded and productive individuals in society. Kind of a deep, heavy topic for a Thursday morning (U.S. time) I know but one that has been on my mind as of late. -- cheers.
Just along for the ride. "the meat from that butcher is just the dogs danglies, absolutely amazing cuts of beef." - DaveAuld (2011)
"No, that is just the earthly manifestation of the Great God Retardon." - Nagy Vilmos (2011)There are two kinds of pain physical and emotional. Both leave there scares. Some people whether young or old don't learn except through pain and suffering. Reasoning doesn't work on all children or adults.
Well, who doesn't release stuff like that ? Microsoft software is just as bad. Christian Graus That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_