Why the need to Codeless languages like PWCT?
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The point is "It will not help" it just make things worse by making people believe that programming is very easy and there is no need to study specific topics to do it. I don't mind people who are not CS graduates to be programmers, but they have to study the basic concepts of the field. It is not just like that.
Well you know, there are even programmers out there who don't understand two's complement. They sometimes even argue that they don't need to know. And then they complain that the sum of two positive numbers couldn't possibly be negative so the computer or the compiler or whatever must be doing something wrong.
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
It will only create more opportunities for programmers (who need not be Comp Sci graduates, some of the best I've ever met are self educated) to clean up the messes they make...
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them." Eric Hoffer "The failure mode of 'clever' is 'asshole'" John Scalzi
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The point is "It will not help" it just make things worse by making people believe that programming is very easy and there is no need to study specific topics to do it. I don't mind people who are not CS graduates to be programmers, but they have to study the basic concepts of the field. It is not just like that.
Ahmedn1 wrote:
The point is "It will not help"
you don't know that.
Ahmedn1 wrote:
it just make things worse by making people believe that programming is very easy
if something helps people to get their work done, your opinion of how easy or hard it is compared to what you think programming must be is irrelevant. do you also insist that all programmers use assembly because things like C# and SQL are too far removed from the hardware and give people the impression that programming is easy ?
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
I think that the techonology would help human people to make them better people, if in that way the improve their work its `k, but people comes first. Although i am not an software/system/computer engineer (i am an electronic engineer), I share the love to programming in a similar way you mention. I like to program in languages as cpp and the old assembler, but also knok the practical vba family languages too. I also have to say that to learn to programm has a hard way, teachers don`t trasnfer their knowledge quite well, examples are too easy or too difficult, and in order to understand it you should have not only an appropiate university environmet, but laso the kinder, the primary and secondary (high) school, even the meals and breakfast takes into account. as you can imagine, it is not the case in all the world, so you have to understand this situation and tolerate that not all the people have the same wealth. take into account that the programming has become more and more difficult to learn. since the initial "c" code to the opp, the java concept (and the later dot net approach), the new model-view-controller and the ide's that doesn`t help quite well to developers in order to implemment each approach. I suppose that most of people in Egypt doesn`t have the same opportunities to learn so their most important codes could be seen as the "wrong way to do the things", instead you should look this things and think how you could make it better. remember that the graphical languages appears to make non programming people (who wanted to) to become a "kind" of programmer. the level of the result will depend on the graphical languaje kernel (or so) it is possible to think that people who know how to programm could be "happy" for them because such development would improve their work. so, don't be panic for such development and, if you can improve the "core" of the graphical languaje to make "real short code" it would be better, regards, Elias
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
Citing earlier comments from this thread: - OriginalGriff "Ignore it. It's not the first, it won't be the last." - LanFanNinja "... to not worry about it many similar thing have been created in the past and has not lessened the demand for programmers." Really, no need to worry at all. None of them systems has ever come close to be a significant threat to programmers, nor will they. Anybody who has ever bothered to take a look at the cryptic code these "new technologies" generate will have realized that it's not designed to be maintained by any living human being (on the code level). They only add an additional and completely unnecessary layer of complexity to the development process. Even worse, once you use one of these tools to generate commercial applications you're stuck, depending entirely on the code generator for almost everything. Of course you can always write your own code within their framework, but then, why use them at all? In a certain sense that's similar to a company being "married" to a specific ERP. The more they get accustomed to using it, the more difficult it becomes migrating to another ERP, not to mention the human and financial costs implied. IMHO, these systems are no good for anything except for wasting your time and other valuable resources. Just in case, perhaps somebody could run some Static Code Analysis on the code generated by PWCT et al. and then try to analyze the results ;-) http://altdevblogaday.com/2011/12/24/static-code-analysis/ (from today's CodeProject Daily News).
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
Well, I have several questions... 1) What programming language is PWCT written in? Is it written in PWCT? 2) Does PWCT compile itself? I.,E.: If new libraries are added, does PWCT recompile itself to make new features available? Sounds totally BOGUS to me! MJR
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I agree with most of what you are saying. One thing I do not agree with however is your opinion that to be a good programmer you must be a computer science graduate. I very strongly believe that people are born with the mindset and abilities to be a good programmer. My honest opinion of PWCT is to not worry about it many similar thing have been created in the past and has not lessened the demand for programmers. Most normal "everyday" users don't want to create applications they just want to use them. :)
LanFanNinja wrote:
I very strongly believe that people are born with the mindset and abilities to be a good programmer.
I doubt that. But I also doubt that the same mindset can be taught at the college level. Or that it can be knowingly directed. There are certain conditions that lead to being able to program and presenting the existing knowledge is just a way for those with the aptitude to acquire the detail. And of course it also says nothing about whether a person will actually be good at it.
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Citing earlier comments from this thread: - OriginalGriff "Ignore it. It's not the first, it won't be the last." - LanFanNinja "... to not worry about it many similar thing have been created in the past and has not lessened the demand for programmers." Really, no need to worry at all. None of them systems has ever come close to be a significant threat to programmers, nor will they. Anybody who has ever bothered to take a look at the cryptic code these "new technologies" generate will have realized that it's not designed to be maintained by any living human being (on the code level). They only add an additional and completely unnecessary layer of complexity to the development process. Even worse, once you use one of these tools to generate commercial applications you're stuck, depending entirely on the code generator for almost everything. Of course you can always write your own code within their framework, but then, why use them at all? In a certain sense that's similar to a company being "married" to a specific ERP. The more they get accustomed to using it, the more difficult it becomes migrating to another ERP, not to mention the human and financial costs implied. IMHO, these systems are no good for anything except for wasting your time and other valuable resources. Just in case, perhaps somebody could run some Static Code Analysis on the code generated by PWCT et al. and then try to analyze the results ;-) http://altdevblogaday.com/2011/12/24/static-code-analysis/ (from today's CodeProject Daily News).
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Well, I have several questions... 1) What programming language is PWCT written in? Is it written in PWCT? 2) Does PWCT compile itself? I.,E.: If new libraries are added, does PWCT recompile itself to make new features available? Sounds totally BOGUS to me! MJR
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
I feel some kind of fear in your post that you'll lose your job because someone came up with a way to write programs without coding. I'm convinced that if someone was to invent a tool that will make your/my/our programming skills superfluous then we're not gonna stop that from happening. Actually, it happens all the time! What do frameworks, libraries or special DSLs do? They take a bunch of code and hide it underneath a neat API that will be easier to use than the original code - and while using it your code will not be prone to all the errors that one might introduce writing that code oneself. Think of all the scaffolding tools/frameworks out there - they produce tons of correct code within seconds! Noone needs that code to be written by hand anymore. It is part of our job to keep improving and learning - why would someone want to pay you for 10 hours of programming if a tool can do the same job in 30 minutes? I also wouldn't pick on people calling themselves programmers - it's not about what you call yourself but what you are able to do. And if you stay ahead of the rest you won't have to be afraid to lose your job as a programmer. Heads up, Oliver
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
This will always happen. People will always try to create an abstraction to help in making software. It's just a question of how far you can really go with this abstraction as to when it becomes really narrow in what you can do with the tools. Some people might think that .NET alongside Visual Studio is the perfect abstraction (higher level) others will think this is too much and need something more low level. At the end of the day it really boils down to what you are trying to achieve and what in your personal opinion are the best tools to achieve that outcome.
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I feel some kind of fear in your post that you'll lose your job because someone came up with a way to write programs without coding. I'm convinced that if someone was to invent a tool that will make your/my/our programming skills superfluous then we're not gonna stop that from happening. Actually, it happens all the time! What do frameworks, libraries or special DSLs do? They take a bunch of code and hide it underneath a neat API that will be easier to use than the original code - and while using it your code will not be prone to all the errors that one might introduce writing that code oneself. Think of all the scaffolding tools/frameworks out there - they produce tons of correct code within seconds! Noone needs that code to be written by hand anymore. It is part of our job to keep improving and learning - why would someone want to pay you for 10 hours of programming if a tool can do the same job in 30 minutes? I also wouldn't pick on people calling themselves programmers - it's not about what you call yourself but what you are able to do. And if you stay ahead of the rest you won't have to be afraid to lose your job as a programmer. Heads up, Oliver
It is not fear I just want more respect to this field and There is a difference between frameworks and this Visual Programming I'm sure that visual programming cannot produce a large critical project or even a medium one and there are things that are taking time making a simple "Hello World" program took me double time of coding it
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This will always happen. People will always try to create an abstraction to help in making software. It's just a question of how far you can really go with this abstraction as to when it becomes really narrow in what you can do with the tools. Some people might think that .NET alongside Visual Studio is the perfect abstraction (higher level) others will think this is too much and need something more low level. At the end of the day it really boils down to what you are trying to achieve and what in your personal opinion are the best tools to achieve that outcome.
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
I would suggest you become better programmers and not fuss over education. In the USA, most of what is taught in college has little relationship to the real world. Most of the code out there is dealing with the database. It is moving data in and out and making sure that the data is sensible. For the record, my degree is in Church Ministry. My only college level programming was a COBOL course taken in 1984. My education consists of a lot of reading, a lot of writing code, and three month intensive study. The three month course said they would give me experience on a level with having spent two to three years on the job. And in my case, it has held out. The reality is that most people can't program even with that technology. What it will accomplish is that an organization will have some non-programmer get something that works adequately for a while. The person will move on and they won't be able to find someone to maintain it. Then someone will make good money fixing things up. Protecting yourself by requiring education will not lead anywhere. Protect yourself by delivering quality code in a timely manner. Pay attention to the value of what you write. Learn to write in iterations. The first being something that mostly gets things done. Then improve in steps and people will love your work. Don't get upset when the user doesn't tell you everything. They don't know what to tell you. That is part of the process. Be willing to learn how to do their job, so you can make i easier. Business value is and will always be your best form of security. Anything else will lead to a short quick ride to the bottom when the wall eventually fails. Your idea of protecting your jobs by requiring education is quite like the efforts of your former government to protect itself by suppressing the citizens. It works, but not forever.
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I would suggest you become better programmers and not fuss over education. In the USA, most of what is taught in college has little relationship to the real world. Most of the code out there is dealing with the database. It is moving data in and out and making sure that the data is sensible. For the record, my degree is in Church Ministry. My only college level programming was a COBOL course taken in 1984. My education consists of a lot of reading, a lot of writing code, and three month intensive study. The three month course said they would give me experience on a level with having spent two to three years on the job. And in my case, it has held out. The reality is that most people can't program even with that technology. What it will accomplish is that an organization will have some non-programmer get something that works adequately for a while. The person will move on and they won't be able to find someone to maintain it. Then someone will make good money fixing things up. Protecting yourself by requiring education will not lead anywhere. Protect yourself by delivering quality code in a timely manner. Pay attention to the value of what you write. Learn to write in iterations. The first being something that mostly gets things done. Then improve in steps and people will love your work. Don't get upset when the user doesn't tell you everything. They don't know what to tell you. That is part of the process. Be willing to learn how to do their job, so you can make i easier. Business value is and will always be your best form of security. Anything else will lead to a short quick ride to the bottom when the wall eventually fails. Your idea of protecting your jobs by requiring education is quite like the efforts of your former government to protect itself by suppressing the citizens. It works, but not forever.
Great I agree with you the point is I'm not saying that programmers are only CS graduates I mean if anyone wants to be a programmer he must know of things like 'Data Structures' and 'Algorithms', Am I wrong? without these two important fields he just write a messy code that executes what is required by any means. Not matter how he learn these, but he has to.
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
I think your question is pointless; PWCT presumably satisfies a particular a particular need, niche or not, and if it doesn't it will die a death like many others. We use tools to build programs every day - I started writing in machine code many years ago, then first generation compiled languages with no or minimal libraries, but now use functionally rich languages. You pick your tool for the job you've got to do. And programmers as we know them today will probably disappear eventually given enough time, but perhaps not in our lifetime Jim.
Les
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Ahmedn1 wrote:
The point is "It will not help"
you don't know that.
Ahmedn1 wrote:
it just make things worse by making people believe that programming is very easy
if something helps people to get their work done, your opinion of how easy or hard it is compared to what you think programming must be is irrelevant. do you also insist that all programmers use assembly because things like C# and SQL are too far removed from the hardware and give people the impression that programming is easy ?
Chris Losinger wrote:
Ahmedn1 wrote:
The point is "It will not help"
you don't know that.
I know that by experience - that kind of tools only cheat users that they can make things simple and empower them to solve complex problems. You need to have proper knowledge to solve a complex problem. That is why we are not going to sell groceries by the way.
Chris Losinger wrote:
if something helps people to get their work done, your opinion of how easy or hard it is compared to what you think programming must be is irrelevant.
do you also insist that all programmers use assembly because things like C# and SQL are too far removed from the hardware and give people the impression that programming is easy ?You cannot compare those things - there is a tool for every purpose. Some things must be done in assembly, others in C# and SQL. If you want to write programs "visually" you can do it really only in a certain restricted domain because a lot of things will need to be guessed or implied behind the scenes by the tool author. If there is a really *simple* problem to be solved - there is the Excel for that and again you will need the *knowledge* to use it. You see - anytime you do even the simplest information processing you will need proper information processing skills and background. So, this will just not "help people get their work done".
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Chris Losinger wrote:
Ahmedn1 wrote:
The point is "It will not help"
you don't know that.
I know that by experience - that kind of tools only cheat users that they can make things simple and empower them to solve complex problems. You need to have proper knowledge to solve a complex problem. That is why we are not going to sell groceries by the way.
Chris Losinger wrote:
if something helps people to get their work done, your opinion of how easy or hard it is compared to what you think programming must be is irrelevant.
do you also insist that all programmers use assembly because things like C# and SQL are too far removed from the hardware and give people the impression that programming is easy ?You cannot compare those things - there is a tool for every purpose. Some things must be done in assembly, others in C# and SQL. If you want to write programs "visually" you can do it really only in a certain restricted domain because a lot of things will need to be guessed or implied behind the scenes by the tool author. If there is a really *simple* problem to be solved - there is the Excel for that and again you will need the *knowledge* to use it. You see - anytime you do even the simplest information processing you will need proper information processing skills and background. So, this will just not "help people get their work done".
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LanFanNinja wrote:
I very strongly believe that people are born with the mindset and abilities to be a good programmer.
I doubt that. But I also doubt that the same mindset can be taught at the college level. Or that it can be knowingly directed. There are certain conditions that lead to being able to program and presenting the existing knowledge is just a way for those with the aptitude to acquire the detail. And of course it also says nothing about whether a person will actually be good at it.
Perhaps I could have chosen my words better. I simply meant to say that certain people are born with what I could only describe as hard coded interests that allow them to become better programmers than most.
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be