Could I? I need some pointers
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When he said that it was double the average, I took that to mean the average wage, not the average for his age. I guess it's no different to me trying to live in Sydney on my $45k. It could not be done. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: When he said that it was double the average, I took that to mean the average wage, not the average for his age. It may have been more that it was double the average for his area of England than fir his age. Christian Graus wrote: I guess it's no different to me trying to live in Sydney on my $45k. It could not be done. I wouldn't recommend it. I think I am on about $2-3,000 more than this at the moment. If I was single I could probably get by, even with my current debts. But add wife (doesn't work) and 2 kids it don't work. <thread hijack> How's it all going down there in Hobart? Haven't caught up for a chat for a long fucking time. So just out of interest not nosiness. By the way did you hear my daughter lost one of her front teeth when she rolled out of our bed New Years day. Banged it on the bottom of my computer chair which is setup on the side of our bedroom. Blood everywhere and spent the morning in a couple of emergency wards. Pediatric dental specialist hoped it would firm up (very fucking lose, pushed towards the back of her mouth) and move forward again. 1 week later (2 days after her 3rd birthday) it came out as it was still very loose and was hitting against her bottom tooth and causing shit loads of pain. I'm not happy as she will be about 3 years before the replacement comes in. </thread hijack> Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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I agree with CG. Enthusiasm will vault you to the top of the list every time. You may not have all of the skills, but make sure you ask plenty of good questions and express excitement about the possibility of working for them.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Yes Enthusiasm is good. It was amazing the amount of people I interviewed that seemed to be in software because is "looked like a good career" and had no empaphy for it. One thing, I did not mind if the person I interviewed could not answer a question, as long as they knew how to find the answer. Making a guess is fatal, especially if you give the wrong answer.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants. - Isaac Newton 1676
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Michael Martin wrote: I thought that was pugnacious alcoholic. Bah. :rolleyes: Michael Martin wrote: So maybe I do have a suggestion. Don't do what I did. Obviously me and my methods sucks. Do the opposite. Now if only I knew what the opposite was. It sounds like you've just had bad luck. Everything in life revolves around being in the right place at the right time. This job here is an exception, the vast majority would pay me about £10 *a day* after travel and taxes which is only double what the employment service are currently paying me.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: It sounds like you've just had bad luck. Everything in life revolves around being in the right place at the right time. So true. Both of my last 2 jobs were ones I wasn't actualy looking for. But I had the skills and experience and the offers came. Both time they were paying $20,000+ more than I was then on. So it was a no brainer to move. If there is anything I can see now looking back, is that I didn't plan a career or at least plan what I wanted to get from each job. Be that technical skill or business knowledge wise. I just rolled with the punches which was great for me until the arse fell out of the market. You are young, have good references as far a working products/sites to show off go. As well as the interest to learn what you need to do the job. I would find a way to add in at the interview that you setup the company, found the work, did it and earned the money required to buy legal copies of all the software you use. It maybe hard as the Aussie/Pommy culture is not to blow your own trumpet. Having said that don't go over the top and if it doesn't seem appropriate don't do it. Read the interview situation and do what you feel is right. Short version, be confident while not being a twat and you should get it as you have done it all and can and have learnt what is required quickly and by yourself. That alone should be enough to get someone interested. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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David Wulff wrote: It sounds like you've just had bad luck. Everything in life revolves around being in the right place at the right time. So true. Both of my last 2 jobs were ones I wasn't actualy looking for. But I had the skills and experience and the offers came. Both time they were paying $20,000+ more than I was then on. So it was a no brainer to move. If there is anything I can see now looking back, is that I didn't plan a career or at least plan what I wanted to get from each job. Be that technical skill or business knowledge wise. I just rolled with the punches which was great for me until the arse fell out of the market. You are young, have good references as far a working products/sites to show off go. As well as the interest to learn what you need to do the job. I would find a way to add in at the interview that you setup the company, found the work, did it and earned the money required to buy legal copies of all the software you use. It maybe hard as the Aussie/Pommy culture is not to blow your own trumpet. Having said that don't go over the top and if it doesn't seem appropriate don't do it. Read the interview situation and do what you feel is right. Short version, be confident while not being a twat and you should get it as you have done it all and can and have learnt what is required quickly and by yourself. That alone should be enough to get someone interested. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
I'm writting (with the aide of a spell checker ;P) my draft letter now. I'm not sure though if I may be making it, well, a bit too provocative and in-your-face. I’ve tried to include enthusiasm and a small part of my personality in my writing, but I don’t want to come off as you so eloquently put it: as a twat. That doesn’t happen in real life though, not even when I’m shitfaced. Damnit letters are so impersonal – I hate them!
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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(This should go in the “work issues” forum I suppose, but there is a deadline for applications of next Tuesday and I’d like to get mine off this week, which basically means tomorrow, so please accept my apologies.) As I’ve said before, pimping my time to the highest bidder just isn’t offering me a life career so I have been looking for full time employment for the last 6 weeks or so. From my local paper tonight: “Web Developer Exciting opportunity to join rapidly expanding Exeter based software development house. Practical experiences of HTML, ASP, VBScript, JavaScript, ADO, SQL, SQL Server 7/2000, Access 97/2000 required. Knowledge of Internet Information Server, Visual Basic, MFC, C++, ODBC, TCP/IP, Winsock, would be advantageous. Starting £23K” I may need to touch up a bit on my VBScript, uck, I’ve been getting a lot of SQL Server experience the last month or so (at least the kind I suspect they are after; I’m no DBA but I can setup a database and do the basic admin stuff) and the rest I feel I can meet to a high enough standard if not exceed it based on what I’ve seen of this company and their current work. I know enough VB to bluff my way through most tasks I’ve ever needed it for, so that may even be enough. It’s pretty much what I’ve been doing for two years but is steady and with paid sick leave. I can talk my way through most of the “advantageous” stuff if needed – I know my way around even if I may need a torch every now and again when it gets to the heavy stuff (networking sticks in my throat for example). I’m hoping that that side of things would be for creating/managing server side components, which I am fine with. It’s an entry level position so hopefully they will accept some of the commercial work I’ve done before as references (some places won’t accept references from companies you’ve worked with on a freelance-contract basis, even if you’ve been with one company for over a year :(). I hope these guys will because I’ve got some great ones up my sleeve. The money isn’t great when you get into a place like London, but for the South West of the country that is over three times the minimum wage and more than double the average. Most other jobs I’ve been applying for have been offering the bare minimum £7 a year because I am under twenty one. :(( I will apply regardless because one has to keep trying or not try at all. If I can get them to interview me then I would do much better – I hate writing CV’s, they're so cold and impersional. Do you have any tips
Paul W and I conversed a while ago about the importance of cover letters. To recap. I helped oragnize a study of it last year that focussed on IT jobs in the Australian market. When I posted some information here at CP about it, Paul confirmed after reviewing the employment decisions he had made that the cover letter did actually have impact. The research on cover letters I was involved with was not for advertised positions but more for submissions of approach. However feel free to contact me outside of the forums if you want someone to review your cover letter. As to the CV put everything down as experience that you have in a summary on the top of the CV. That way a future employer doesn't have to read all the boring details. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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I'm writting (with the aide of a spell checker ;P) my draft letter now. I'm not sure though if I may be making it, well, a bit too provocative and in-your-face. I’ve tried to include enthusiasm and a small part of my personality in my writing, but I don’t want to come off as you so eloquently put it: as a twat. That doesn’t happen in real life though, not even when I’m shitfaced. Damnit letters are so impersonal – I hate them!
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: I'm not sure though if I may be making it, well, a bit too provocative and in-your-face.
Dear
[name of company], I want you. Not a moment goes by that I don't think of you, wishing nothing more than for you to hold me to yourself, spending eternity clasped to your bosom. My days spent walking your halls, my evenings making love to your coffee machines. For the chance at this, I would risk everything, lose myself for a chance to give you my all. Please don't push me away, you who mean so much to me! Read the list of qualifications I've included at least. Should you choose to snub me, I would be utterly crushed, but what a tragedy it would be for you not to know how much I could mean. I love you. Sincerely,[applicant]---
Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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David Wulff wrote: I'm not sure though if I may be making it, well, a bit too provocative and in-your-face.
Dear
[name of company], I want you. Not a moment goes by that I don't think of you, wishing nothing more than for you to hold me to yourself, spending eternity clasped to your bosom. My days spent walking your halls, my evenings making love to your coffee machines. For the chance at this, I would risk everything, lose myself for a chance to give you my all. Please don't push me away, you who mean so much to me! Read the list of qualifications I've included at least. Should you choose to snub me, I would be utterly crushed, but what a tragedy it would be for you not to know how much I could mean. I love you. Sincerely,[applicant]---
Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Josh, you need help. You have waaay to much time on your hands...;P
I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder Microsoft has reinvented the wheel, this time they made it round. -Peterchen on VS.NET
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Paul W and I conversed a while ago about the importance of cover letters. To recap. I helped oragnize a study of it last year that focussed on IT jobs in the Australian market. When I posted some information here at CP about it, Paul confirmed after reviewing the employment decisions he had made that the cover letter did actually have impact. The research on cover letters I was involved with was not for advertised positions but more for submissions of approach. However feel free to contact me outside of the forums if you want someone to review your cover letter. As to the CV put everything down as experience that you have in a summary on the top of the CV. That way a future employer doesn't have to read all the boring details. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Thanks for the advice. Colin Davies wrote: feel free to contact me outside of the forums if you want someone to review your cover letter I have done, if you wouldn't mind. Thanks! Colin Davies wrote: As to the CV put everything down as experience that you have in a summary on the top of the CV. That way a future employer doesn't have to read all the boring details. Noted. :)
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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David Wulff wrote: I'm not sure though if I may be making it, well, a bit too provocative and in-your-face.
Dear
[name of company], I want you. Not a moment goes by that I don't think of you, wishing nothing more than for you to hold me to yourself, spending eternity clasped to your bosom. My days spent walking your halls, my evenings making love to your coffee machines. For the chance at this, I would risk everything, lose myself for a chance to give you my all. Please don't push me away, you who mean so much to me! Read the list of qualifications I've included at least. Should you choose to snub me, I would be utterly crushed, but what a tragedy it would be for you not to know how much I could mean. I love you. Sincerely,[applicant]---
Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Mate, you are way beyond hope. Tony Soprano's psychiatrist would have no idea where to start with you. Doesn't the coffee machine burn? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Mate, you are way beyond hope. Tony Soprano's psychiatrist would have no idea where to start with you. Doesn't the coffee machine burn? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: Tony Soprano's psychiatrist would have no idea where to start with you. I would suggest the ankles; she could prolly find her way after that. Michael Martin wrote: Doesn't the coffee machine burn? Yes. Oh, yes. Oh god how it burns! :omg:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Mate, you are way beyond hope. Tony Soprano's psychiatrist would have no idea where to start with you. Doesn't the coffee machine burn? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Michael Martin wrote: Tony Soprano's psychiatrist would have no idea where to start with you. I would suggest the ankles; she could prolly find her way after that. Michael Martin wrote: Doesn't the coffee machine burn? Yes. Oh, yes. Oh god how it burns! :omg:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: I would suggest the ankles; she could prolly find her way after that. This women would be older than your mother. That's positively Freudian, I'm not touching this line any longer. Shog9 wrote: Yes. Oh, yes. Oh god how it burns! :omg: From that single line I deduce you are a card carrying member of your local Mistress Sally's S&M club. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Shog9 wrote: I would suggest the ankles; she could prolly find her way after that. This women would be older than your mother. That's positively Freudian, I'm not touching this line any longer. Shog9 wrote: Yes. Oh, yes. Oh god how it burns! :omg: From that single line I deduce you are a card carrying member of your local Mistress Sally's S&M club. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: This women would be older than your mother. Well, being a character on a TV show, that's less than obvious (though i'm not an avid Sopranos fan, so maybe it is frequently mentioned and i've just missed it). In any case, she's hot, in a "prim older woman with glasses" sorta way. Michael Martin wrote: I'm not touching this line any longer. Doin' lines off of CP, sounds bad Michael... :~ Michael Martin wrote: From that single line I deduce you are a card carrying member of your local Mistress Sally's S&M club. No. They took away my card after seeing what i did with it. :((
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Michael Martin wrote: This women would be older than your mother. Well, being a character on a TV show, that's less than obvious (though i'm not an avid Sopranos fan, so maybe it is frequently mentioned and i've just missed it). In any case, she's hot, in a "prim older woman with glasses" sorta way. Michael Martin wrote: I'm not touching this line any longer. Doin' lines off of CP, sounds bad Michael... :~ Michael Martin wrote: From that single line I deduce you are a card carrying member of your local Mistress Sally's S&M club. No. They took away my card after seeing what i did with it. :((
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: Well, being a character on a TV show, that's less than obvious (though i'm not an avid Sopranos fan, so maybe it is frequently mentioned and i've just missed it). In any case, she's hot, in a "prim older woman with glasses" sorta way. When she got raped we got to see her son. He was at least in his early 20's. Taking into account the fact she had to finish all post doctorate stuff to become a psychiatrist (I assume she did this before having her child) that would put her into the 50's. Also she looks this old anyway when I look at her. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Shog9 wrote: Well, being a character on a TV show, that's less than obvious (though i'm not an avid Sopranos fan, so maybe it is frequently mentioned and i've just missed it). In any case, she's hot, in a "prim older woman with glasses" sorta way. When she got raped we got to see her son. He was at least in his early 20's. Taking into account the fact she had to finish all post doctorate stuff to become a psychiatrist (I assume she did this before having her child) that would put her into the 50's. Also she looks this old anyway when I look at her. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Jason Henderson wrote: Enthusiasm will vault you to the top of the list every time Uh huh, gotcha. Jason Henderson wrote: make sure you ask plenty of good questions and express excitement about the possibility of working for them That's usually where I fall down, but I'll try my best as ever. I can do the whole excitement thing but when it comes to asking questions I always come out with the strangest of things. :( :~
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Don't worry it is rare for anyone to ask "sensible" questions. I always looked for someone that would "fit in", would be likely to stay for a couple of years. as I mentioned in a previous thread the interviewer will probably not be very proficient in interviewing anyway! Also im my experience it was difficult to find anyone with anything like useful skills, so employing someone was sometimes like Hobsons choice. Interviewing is very frustrating and time consuming, my worst case was a guy via an agency who's CV was superb unfortunately it was a pack of lies, he was very honest and wanted a junior role, his CV made him out to be a highly skilled senior programmer, which was the position I interviewed him for. I gave him a copy of the agencies CV to take away, he agreed it did not match his skills. As some one has offered to vet your letter, take up the offer, a 2nd pair of eyes is great. If you like email me a copy, but don't get too hung up on it, there are no methods that guarantee you getting the interview, even the best letter can fail it you pose a threat to the guy interviewing you, he might not interview you, even if you are the best for the job. It's a minefield out there!
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants. - Isaac Newton 1676
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Thanks for the advice. Colin Davies wrote: feel free to contact me outside of the forums if you want someone to review your cover letter I have done, if you wouldn't mind. Thanks! Colin Davies wrote: As to the CV put everything down as experience that you have in a summary on the top of the CV. That way a future employer doesn't have to read all the boring details. Noted. :)
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: As to the CV put everything down as experience that you have in a summary on the top of the CV. That way a future employer doesn't have to read all the boring details. But be careful. I've seen lots of CVs where someone with only a few years experience claims to be an expert at c++, sql, java, tcp/ip, web development, and half a dozen more things and you just think that there is no way they could be an expert in all of those things after a few years only. It might be better to put key skills (which should be exactly those you think the possible employer is looking for) and "others" just so they know you know something about a wide range of things without looking stupid because you've claimed to know everything about everything.
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David Wulff wrote: As to the CV put everything down as experience that you have in a summary on the top of the CV. That way a future employer doesn't have to read all the boring details. But be careful. I've seen lots of CVs where someone with only a few years experience claims to be an expert at c++, sql, java, tcp/ip, web development, and half a dozen more things and you just think that there is no way they could be an expert in all of those things after a few years only. It might be better to put key skills (which should be exactly those you think the possible employer is looking for) and "others" just so they know you know something about a wide range of things without looking stupid because you've claimed to know everything about everything.
I'll second that. If you get a cv with lots of buzz words listed in a huge line then you tend to think they are putting them on just because they know about them superficially, and want to impress. It's much better to emphasize the skills you are good at and comfortable with. The original advert may have had a huge list, but, believe me, when we ask for such stuff, we aren't expecting someone who has all of them! The right person with the right attitude would win the job as long as they had (most of) the core skills. The other comments about the covering letter hold weight too, though try not to over-do the enthusiasm though, and keep it professional! Debbie
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Jason Henderson wrote: Enthusiasm will vault you to the top of the list every time Uh huh, gotcha. Jason Henderson wrote: make sure you ask plenty of good questions and express excitement about the possibility of working for them That's usually where I fall down, but I'll try my best as ever. I can do the whole excitement thing but when it comes to asking questions I always come out with the strangest of things. :( :~
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: I can do the whole excitement thing but when it comes to asking questions I always come out with the strangest of things. Well, don't overdo the excitement thing or you may look psychotic.:~ Oh, and one huge hint that is well worth remembering...if the interviewer is a woman, and just happens to come from Tiverton...don't do the walrus joke, ok??? Good luck! Debbie
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Hmm... this is really heading down an ugly road... i'll just let that lay.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: Hmm... this is really heading down an ugly road... i'll just let that lay. C'mon Josh, don't run away. Just think glasses, knee length skirt, matron style blouse. That's sure to get you going again. :-D Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002