Abortion
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The last was a joke!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
oops, ok. my bad.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
But it can not be stopped. Even if there existed a plan to have it stopped someday, crime exists. Some people just do 'bad' things. The reason is irrelevant, and also very often a 'theory' or opinion. Saying "If we had no crime" is like saying "if everyone loved one another" or "if we had unlimited resources", or "if compilers output bacon" It is hypothetical and will not likely occur. I am fine with hypothetical context's, but now you are assuming that you have eliminated the need for something because of your hypothetical context (no rape etc.). The major problem with that argument is multiple crimes removed hypothetically are not all ecomposing for ones reason to have an abortion. Do not pretend you have the thoughts of every woman that has had an abortion in your mind.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Regardless, my point is to reduce abortions, reduce the need. To reduce the need, change peoples behavior. To change peoples behavior, teach them to be responsible and unselfish. The reality is that most abortions are not because of rape, or incest, or life of the mother. Most abortions are for birth control[^] reasons[^]. While we may not be able to significantly impact the instances of rape, we can and should try remove the need for "abortions of convenience".
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Do not pretend you have the thoughts of every woman that has had an abortion in your mind.
Certainly not! I don't have the thoughts of even a single woman one in my mind. I'm grateful that I'll never have to be in such a circumstance. My heart goes out to those who find themselves in such a situation. [Edited to add source for reasons for abortions]
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Wrong. Answering to yourself is just as important (if not more IMO) than anyone (or any"thing" else) If you can not forgive yourself, how do you expect your god to?
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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ryanb31 wrote:
All you godless people ever say is god doesn't exist so that you can justify your actions
Actually, I didn't say god doesn't exist.You assumed that I said that. I said that God as a moral authority to justify restrictions on society was a non-starter, because many people do not believe. I don't need to justify anything, these are debating points.
ryanb31 wrote:
If you don't have to answer to anyone then you can't be wrong.
Again, you make the assumption I'm an atheist. Even people who are have to answer to themselves. If the fear Hell/Jahanam is the only thing keeping you on a straight and narrow path, I'd argue you are less moral than someone who does lead a good life and doesn't have this fear. Oh and I'm often wrong.
ryanb31 wrote:
Just because you do not believe in Him, does not mean He does not exist.
And just because you do, doesn't mean he does. See how that cuts both ways.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
-Or-
A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]Keith Barrow wrote:
I'd argue you are less moral than someone who does lead a good life and doesn't have this fear.
This has often been what I have thought. Someone that does 'good' only because they believe some super natural being will punish them for all eternity give false morality. Where as those that do 'good' because they know it is 'good' understand human morality. Quite simple it seems, but yet so many fanatics preach aetheists are so immoral, yet often it is the opposite.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Blimey! Way to read what you want to read from what I said!
ryanb31 wrote:
So, you really believe that if rape were legal it would not happen anymore than it does now?
Show me where I said that!
ryanb31 wrote:
Legalizing drugs?
I can't abide people that split hairs and are deliberately pedantic to make a point at the expense of the original point. Not surprised you got downvoted for it though not by me.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Blimey! Way to read what you want to read from what I said!
ryanb31 wrote:
So, you really believe that if rape were legal it would not happen anymore than it does now?
Show me where I said that!
ryanb31 wrote:
Legalizing drugs?
I can't abide people that split hairs and are deliberately pedantic to make a point at the expense of the original point. Not surprised you got downvoted for it though not by me.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Wrong. Answering to yourself is just as important (if not more IMO) than anyone (or any"thing" else) If you can not forgive yourself, how do you expect your god to?
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
"
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Answering to yourself is just as important (if not more IMO) than anyone (or any"thing" else)
" So, you are the supreme being? How nice not to have to answer to anyone else. You can make up your own rules and whatever you do is right because there is no one and nothing higher? Wish I could convince myself to think that way.
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ryanb31 wrote:
You're right. It is "hideous behavior" to try and prevent unwed sex, incest, rape, abuse, etc. How dare religious people do that.
It is hideous, yes. How dare religious people do that! 1) According to the bible, rape is something god demands that his followers do when he wants them to. 2) According to the bible, the rape victim along with the rapist should be taken outside the city gates and stoned to death. 3) According to the bible, you can sell your daughter into slavery where she is to "please the man who bought her". 4) According to the bible, a rapist must marry the woman if he gets caught.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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At least the one we answer to can be proven to exist.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Regardless, my point is to reduce abortions, reduce the need. To reduce the need, change peoples behavior. To change peoples behavior, teach them to be responsible and unselfish. The reality is that most abortions are not because of rape, or incest, or life of the mother. Most abortions are for birth control[^] reasons[^]. While we may not be able to significantly impact the instances of rape, we can and should try remove the need for "abortions of convenience".
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Do not pretend you have the thoughts of every woman that has had an abortion in your mind.
Certainly not! I don't have the thoughts of even a single woman one in my mind. I'm grateful that I'll never have to be in such a circumstance. My heart goes out to those who find themselves in such a situation. [Edited to add source for reasons for abortions]
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braunahmed zahmed wrote:
Most abortions are for birth control reasons.
Unfortunately, I suspect you are correct on this, but I would suggest you cite a source when you make a statement like that or you may get hammered on the post. (I, for one, will not downvote this post)
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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I quoted what you said so why are you questioning? You said "Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour." So, should we take the laws away? What was your point? Please explain.
Learn to read what was said without automatically adding your own spin to it. I said "Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour" - a valid observation. Where you get from that that I think all laws are useless and should be scrapped is way beyond me. It's you that need to explain how you made that leap.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
Most abortions are for birth control reasons.
Unfortunately, I suspect you are correct on this, but I would suggest you cite a source when you make a statement like that or you may get hammered on the post. (I, for one, will not downvote this post)
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
Thanks for your suggestion. Point taken.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Learn to read what was said without automatically adding your own spin to it. I said "Simply making laws has not stopped the behaviour" - a valid observation. Where you get from that that I think all laws are useless and should be scrapped is way beyond me. It's you that need to explain how you made that leap.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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So, to be clear, you ARE saying it is wrong for people to try and prevent rape? And by the way, you do not know how to interpret the Bible.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, to be clear, you ARE saying it is wrong for people to try and prevent rape?
Your english comprehension skills are about as clear as mud. If you are going to make an accusation such as that, perhaps you could be intelligent enough to provide a quote to back your claim. I have said nothing of the sort in any of my comments.
ryanb31 wrote:
And by the way, you do not know how to interpret the Bible.
Ah yes. The wonderful "Only believers can know interpret the bible" argument. Yes, that is a great rational way to discuss something. Perhaps you can explain to me why this is the case?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Why? I have no one to answer to. It's interesting that you want to work so hard to eliminate abortion which results from rape or child abuse but what about the underlying issue of violence towards women? Isn't abortion in that case a minor side issue? What about abused women who don't fall pregnant? Social programs targeting violence towards women are something I'm happy to see government spend my tax dollar on. Does that make me a liberal?
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You have proof everywhere that God exists, you just ignore it. Also, what proof is there that you exist? How do we know it is not a matrix situation and you are merely a program? Just saying.
ryanb31 wrote:
You have proof everywhere that God exists, you just ignore it.
I disagree. I have proof that the universe exists, that the earth exists, and that I exist. Why, because I am self-aware and aware of my environment. I see no proof there that god exists. Perhaps you can enlighten me on that proof. I'll gladly look at any proof you may have, but you will have to be willing to read the rebuttals as well.
ryanb31 wrote:
How do we know it is not a matrix situation and you are merely a program? Just saying.
We don't. I would never have the arrogance to claim that I have an answer for everything. The difference is that I don't need to have a catch-all to explain what I don't understand.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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ryanb31 wrote:
So, to be clear, you ARE saying it is wrong for people to try and prevent rape?
Your english comprehension skills are about as clear as mud. If you are going to make an accusation such as that, perhaps you could be intelligent enough to provide a quote to back your claim. I have said nothing of the sort in any of my comments.
ryanb31 wrote:
And by the way, you do not know how to interpret the Bible.
Ah yes. The wonderful "Only believers can know interpret the bible" argument. Yes, that is a great rational way to discuss something. Perhaps you can explain to me why this is the case?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
Ok, I'll hold your hand through this since you are a little slow. You said
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And the religious conveniently justify their hideous behavior
So, I sarcastically replied
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You're right. It is "hideous behavior" to try and prevent unwed sex, incest, rape, abuse, etc. How dare religious people do that.
Ok, so far you said religious people justify their hideous behavior. This thread was about trying to prevent the reasons we have abortion. So it sounded like you were saying the religious were hideous in trying to stop rapes, for example? You still with me? I know it is a lot. So, then YOU said
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It is hideous, yes. How dare religious people do that!
So, yes YOU said that it is hideous for people to try to prevent rape. Still with me? And because that seems absurd, even for you, I rephrased to make sure I understood and I said
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So, to be clear, you ARE saying it is wrong for people to try and prevent rape?
I am NOT putting words in your mouth. I asked if you thought it was hideous for religious people to try and prevent rape and you said yes. I asked you to clarify and then you say I am the one who does not understand English. I am quoting YOU. You also said
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provide a quote to back your claim.
which I did quote you in both of my posts. Where did I lose you? This isn't really that hard. Maybe I need more "take off 'eh?" and then you will understand what I am saying, eh? And, secondly, about the Bible. It was written by men who were inspired through the Spirit by God, so YES, YES, YES, it can only be interpreted correctly through the Spirit. Thank you for agreeing.
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Why? I have no one to answer to. It's interesting that you want to work so hard to eliminate abortion which results from rape or child abuse but what about the underlying issue of violence towards women? Isn't abortion in that case a minor side issue? What about abused women who don't fall pregnant? Social programs targeting violence towards women are something I'm happy to see government spend my tax dollar on. Does that make me a liberal?
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ryanb31 wrote:
You have proof everywhere that God exists, you just ignore it.
I disagree. I have proof that the universe exists, that the earth exists, and that I exist. Why, because I am self-aware and aware of my environment. I see no proof there that god exists. Perhaps you can enlighten me on that proof. I'll gladly look at any proof you may have, but you will have to be willing to read the rebuttals as well.
ryanb31 wrote:
How do we know it is not a matrix situation and you are merely a program? Just saying.
We don't. I would never have the arrogance to claim that I have an answer for everything. The difference is that I don't need to have a catch-all to explain what I don't understand.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
You say you exist because you are self-aware. Everyone in the matrix thought they existed, thought they were self-aware, but they weren't. The matrix is silly but my point is you do not have proof for what you believe. I have heard all of the rebuttals. I get downvoted all the time in this forum for believing in God, which is fine, and in other forums I am praised for believing in God. This group is quite godless for some reason. The proof is simple. Open your eyes, it is everywhere. It is not possible for the universe and everything to have been created from nothing. It was created from God. However, for you to accept that you must understand how spiritual things work. Spiritual proof is both intellectual and in the heart. Godless people are strictly intellectual types (not necessarily intelligent) so they can NEVER understand anything spiritual, even the most basic concepts, such as God existing. You will never understand God until you first understand what your relationship with Him is. It would be like me trying to teach you calculus without you even understanding addition and subtraction. It would be impossible. So, I give you the physical proof of everything and you chose to deny it. If you had an open heart, then we could continue on in the proof of spiritual items, but until then, there is no point.
