Affirmative action..Why it's wrong?
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Affirmative action: Bad: It is discrimination pure and simple. If people are truly equal, then there is no need for affirmative action. Affirmative action is basically racism is an a strange sort of way. (i.e. "Those people" aren't as good enough as whites, so they need help.) Good: One of the problems with the "bad" view of affirmative action is it assumes that all races are equal and more importantly, it assumes all races enjoy the same opportunities. The second part is the key here. But the cause and effect needs to be investigated more. Are the benefactors of affirmative action in need of a helping hand because of their race or is it more of becase of their economic position. (EDIT: The third problem with the "bad" view is that it assumes there is no discrimination. However, there are laws and regulations on the books already to deal with that problem.) My opinion: I happen to believe it has more to do with economic position than race. Affirmative action is flawed because it doesn't properly target the right group of people. We need to improve the economic opportunities of all people. This in turn will mostly help the same groups of people since affirmative action tends to target groups who are on average lower down on the economic scale. (To the best of my knowledge) Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
I do agree to most of what you have said, but your statement: ..it assumes that all races are equal .. . Maybe you got your wording wrong, but that would imply that you think that certain races 'better', or superior to another. Perhaps you meant certain cultural,regional or ecomomical upbringing rather that a persons race? just my bird beak or the day rc
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Affirmative action: Bad: It is discrimination pure and simple. If people are truly equal, then there is no need for affirmative action. Affirmative action is basically racism is an a strange sort of way. (i.e. "Those people" aren't as good enough as whites, so they need help.) Good: One of the problems with the "bad" view of affirmative action is it assumes that all races are equal and more importantly, it assumes all races enjoy the same opportunities. The second part is the key here. But the cause and effect needs to be investigated more. Are the benefactors of affirmative action in need of a helping hand because of their race or is it more of becase of their economic position. (EDIT: The third problem with the "bad" view is that it assumes there is no discrimination. However, there are laws and regulations on the books already to deal with that problem.) My opinion: I happen to believe it has more to do with economic position than race. Affirmative action is flawed because it doesn't properly target the right group of people. We need to improve the economic opportunities of all people. This in turn will mostly help the same groups of people since affirmative action tends to target groups who are on average lower down on the economic scale. (To the best of my knowledge) Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
Tim Smith wrote: We need to improve the economic opportunities of all people. This in turn will mostly help the same groups of people since affirmative action tends to target groups who are on average lower down on the economic scale. (To the best of my knowledge) I agree on your point. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
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I do agree to most of what you have said, but your statement: ..it assumes that all races are equal .. . Maybe you got your wording wrong, but that would imply that you think that certain races 'better', or superior to another. Perhaps you meant certain cultural,regional or ecomomical upbringing rather that a persons race? just my bird beak or the day rc
Did I say that? Nope I did not. "it assumes that all races are equal" is a statement about a position that makes no statement about my position. This is why it is so hard to talk honestly about race since so many people have such logically weak arguments, they start resorting to saying others are racist. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
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LOL... So I guess equal rights means equal right, but we get more. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
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What's wrong in University of Michigan admission plan?? Bush on attack over affirmative action[^] In India, we have "reservation policy" for Women and Lower caste people, so that they can get better education and jobs(of course, that policy being misused by others that's a different story) Personally I disagree that policy, but before India's independence they were branded as "untouchables", so Gandhi made that "reservation policy" which is going on for more than 50 years. Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
A totally different point of AA that I have never heard mention is this: Less QUALIFIED people get to attend and graduate. Lets say a candidate was admitted through Affirmative Action, who otherwise would not have qualified because they were simply not good enough (grades not high enough, entry test scores not high enough what have you not), to a medical school, and pulls through (barely) and makes MD... My question is.. WHAT ABOUT HIS/HER PATIENTS? They would obviously get care for a less qualified individual, who by pure academic standards would never made it into med. school in the first place? If they get hurt by this substandard care, should they be allowed to sue the college that allowed the person to attend despite being academically unsuited? In my opinion, and in this case, FAIRNESS means... "to take no consideration in any way shape and or form to a persons, skin color, gender, religion or sexual preference"... it does NOT mean "giving some people preference due to their skin color". /CMH
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The problem is you are trying to solve one problem by reversing the problem and creating a new one. That is logically flawed. "Hey, you stabbed me in the back, so I am going to stab you in the back." Correct the problem at hand, discrimination in ALL forms. It seems to be a commonly held belief that people who want to see affirmative action abolished are also giving admittance boards a big *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*. Sure, there are some who do think like that. Then there are those of us who are truly sincere and are the first ones in line to jail a few "good old boys" when we have evidence of institutionalized discrimination. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
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Hey lauren, I am a non-white person who feels discrimination is wrong. Simply because I have experienced it; I don't think people who have not wronged people should have to experience the life long anger that follows. I just don't understand why people who have been discriminated against would argue to continue a practice that has the potential to perpetuate discrimination. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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The problem is you are trying to solve one problem by reversing the problem and creating a new one. That is logically flawed. "Hey, you stabbed me in the back, so I am going to stab you in the back." Correct the problem at hand, discrimination in ALL forms. It seems to be a commonly held belief that people who want to see affirmative action abolished are also giving admittance boards a big *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*. Sure, there are some who do think like that. Then there are those of us who are truly sincere and are the first ones in line to jail a few "good old boys" when we have evidence of institutionalized discrimination. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
u do make me laugh on the one hand u criticize paul for his "naive belief that we live in a perfect world" and on the other hand u advocate we should all live happily ever after in such a perfect world discrimination exists and thats a fact ... to address the inbalance caused by history a little nudge on the opposite side will help while the rest of the human race gets its head out of its ass and sees "geeee hiring gay black women as programmers is actually cool" (assuming they can program) thinking the ship that has been sailing on the wrong course for the last 2000 years or more will magically correct itself is naive in the extreme
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about me -
Hey lauren, I am a non-white person who feels discrimination is wrong. Simply because I have experienced it; I don't think people who have not wronged people should have to experience the life long anger that follows. I just don't understand why people who have been discriminated against would argue to continue a practice that has the potential to perpetuate discrimination. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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u do make me laugh on the one hand u criticize paul for his "naive belief that we live in a perfect world" and on the other hand u advocate we should all live happily ever after in such a perfect world discrimination exists and thats a fact ... to address the inbalance caused by history a little nudge on the opposite side will help while the rest of the human race gets its head out of its ass and sees "geeee hiring gay black women as programmers is actually cool" (assuming they can program) thinking the ship that has been sailing on the wrong course for the last 2000 years or more will magically correct itself is naive in the extreme
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about me -
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A totally different point of AA that I have never heard mention is this: Less QUALIFIED people get to attend and graduate. Lets say a candidate was admitted through Affirmative Action, who otherwise would not have qualified because they were simply not good enough (grades not high enough, entry test scores not high enough what have you not), to a medical school, and pulls through (barely) and makes MD... My question is.. WHAT ABOUT HIS/HER PATIENTS? They would obviously get care for a less qualified individual, who by pure academic standards would never made it into med. school in the first place? If they get hurt by this substandard care, should they be allowed to sue the college that allowed the person to attend despite being academically unsuited? In my opinion, and in this case, FAIRNESS means... "to take no consideration in any way shape and or form to a persons, skin color, gender, religion or sexual preference"... it does NOT mean "giving some people preference due to their skin color". /CMH
I believe that to give a person an i>opportunity that they would not normally have due to economic or educational background is different than making that person a doctor. If they are given the opportunity to attend, then it is up to them to succeed. It should be improper for them to say "I did not succeed because others held me back, and therefore I must be given this degree." Another question is: if you want to achieve diversity, how do you measure it? If you measure diversity by race, then there is no way to achieve diversity without using race as a factor. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
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That makes no sense at all. Correct a problem by making it worse? Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
a man robs a bank and gets caught ... in the trial the judge says "did u rob the bank?" ... the man says "yes i did but im really sorry and i wont do it again i promise" ... the judge says "oh ok then please go home and dont do it again" NOT
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about me -
That makes no sense at all. Correct a problem by making it worse? Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
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So, ((2 * Wrong) == Right) Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted paychecks
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Mabey I missed something....it did seem that you are pro AA. Mabey I am not following your argument. I did notice the quote "never judge another mans life until u have walked in his mocasins for 3 moons" Which is a great quote. But in this situation I would point you toward an old saying of my people. "Ho! Mitakuye Oyasin" "We are all related" Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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So, ((2 * Wrong) == Right) Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted paychecks
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Michael Dunn wrote: "Affirmative action" is a euphemism for "discrimination against caucasians", nothing more. I agree. Wanna piss everybody off? Hold the first annual "white heterosexual male only" gathering. I suppose we brought it upon our selves, though. How many years did we partake in slavery, then later, segregation? How long did we hold the Japenese Americans in concentration camps during WWII? The US, thank God, get's a wee bit better each year toward treating everybody equally, but of course, we've still got a long way to go. Affirmative Action, though, has never been the way to do it, however, in my humble opinion. Kyosa Jamie Nordmeyer - Cho Dan Portland, Oregon, USA
Jamie Nordmeyer wrote: How many years did we partake in slavery, then later, segregation? Some whites did that is true, but blacks also sold blacks into slavery. As for myself my direct ancestors wrote the first petition to have the King abolish slavery in the colonies in 1688. My ancestor who was had a 400 acre farm in Virginia is documented as only hiring free men to work his property and paid all equal wages regardless of race in the 1840's. He also wrote you should greet any man with the same offer of you hand in freindship regardless of race and tip your hat to any lady. This is a Virginia farm owner well before the Civil War. So it was not all. "I will find a new sig someday."
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lauren wrote: and .... worse for who exactly? I don't think it makes it any worse. But I do think it does harm in that it generates resement that may not have already been there and does nothing to change what is truly in a person's heart toward others. In other words, I think it helps matain a status quo where people are forced to weigh another person's value based on race and gender. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.