Shouldn't programmers know how to fix computers?
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Most automobiles have many computerized systems in them. Do you expect the mechanic to be a computer technician?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. In at least so far that he knows how to run a diagnostic on those computerized system. If he can't do that, then he isn't qualified to work on my car, and he should stick to fixing VW's ;)
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Do you expect them to be a materials engineer to determine why the brake pads have worn out?
No, but I do expect him to be able to tell me that the brake pads are indeed worn out, not just simply "Uh, your car won't stop.... I don't know why!"
Mark Nischalke wrote:
So you expect anyone who programs computers to also be a hardware technician?
So, by definition, a programmer is someone who makes a computer system do his bidding. Whether it be via a provided API, or direct to metal, makes no difference. If something goes wrong, I expect them to be able to find the problem, even if it turns out that the problem lies in the API... ie, if a "programmer" ever came to me and said "It doesn't work... I don't know why!", he loses all credibility in my eyes In short, I don't expect the programmer to fix the hardware issue, or the driver issue either. Just to be able to point to it, and say "This is what is causing the problem... Can you help me fix it?"
HuntrCkr wrote:
So, by definition, a programmer is someone who makes a computer system do his bidding
Optional definitions I found of programmer, software engineer, etc : --------------------------------------------------------------------------- One who prepares or writes instructional programs. a person who designs and writes and tests computer programs a person who writes a program so that data may be processed by a computer Computer science: --------------------------------------------------------------------- the branch of engineering science that studies (with the aid of computers) computable processes and structures Computer User: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ a person who uses computers for work or entertainment or communication or business
If it moves, compile it
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I would expect any tradesman to know how to maintain the tools he works with. I wouldn't hire a carpenter with blunt chisels to put in a new kitchen. So why should a programmer be any different? Their PC is the primary tool they need to do their work so they should at least know the basics of how to maintain it.
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No one is suggesting developers debug drivers. But how can you create a program and hand it over to a customer when you don't even know how a computer works? At least the basics. You can't run to IT every time you run into an external issue causing your code not to work.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
when you don't even know how a computer works? At least the basics.
This isn't what the thread was implying at all. Knowing how a computer works, and the basics, does not involve being able to fix a blue screen.....
ryanb31 wrote:
You can't run to IT every time you run into an external issue causing your code not to work.
This is also not what your thread was saying.
If it moves, compile it
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Please don't ever put an icon on my desktop. I can't stand programs that put an icon on my desktop like Google Earth. Then every time there is an update/upgrade, they update the desktop icon that I removed. If I wanted clutter, I would use somebody else's computer. My desktop is sacred space for a very few select icons... I use my start bar or quick launch to find things, but don't assume I want them on my desktop. Hogan
Amen, brother!!
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It states pretty clearly what to do[^]. If you get a software error that points you towards a specific file, what are you going to do? My guess is google information on that file. This error screen names a specific file, google it and it will point you towards the proper piece of hardware, from there you can google drivers. It's almost identical to getting an error about a missing dll, and finding out what you need to install to get that dll.
Yeah. I've had a computer blue screen on an mp3 player. We took out the mp3 player after following options. Still got the blue screen. My point is, instructions (in that scenerio) were followed and did nothing. Most of the blue screens I've encountered at work have also not been fixed by the instructions on that screen. Every blue screen I've encountered at work has resulted in a re-install/ or repair by the install disk. That screen is useless to me.
If it moves, compile it
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Can the delivery man service his truck?
Can the carpenter repair his lath?
Does Hamilton know how the car works?All of these are significantly more difficult than plugging a board into a slot. Anyone who can figure out the children's toy where you put the round block in the round hole, the square block in the square hole, etc. has the skill necessary to change hardware in a computer. And a programmer should have the skill necessary to diagnose the error (i.e. google some error codes). And I'm sure all of them do some form of maintenance, the driver likely cleans out his own cabin, maybe fills up gas, etc. A dull tool will likely be sharpened, dirty ones cleaned, etc. Can you assemble a workstation (given a tower, monitor(s), keyboard, etc. can you attach them together)? Yes? Building a computer/changing hardware is identical to that. USB cable fits in the USB port? It goes there. PCIe card fits in the PCIe slot? It goes there. Building a power station is more like being given an empty board and some electronic components and building the motherboard/CPU/etc.
lewax00 wrote:
And I'm sure all of them do some form of maintenance, the driver likely cleans out his own cabin, maybe fills up gas, etc. A dull tool will likely be sharpened, dirty ones cleaned, etc.
All of this is equal to running software like disk cleanup on your machine. It's not the same as diagnosing and fixing a BSOD.
lewax00 wrote:
Can you assemble a workstation (given a tower, monitor(s), keyboard, etc. can you attach them together)? Yes? Building a computer/changing hardware is identical to that. USB cable fits in the USB port? It goes there. PCIe card fits in the PCIe slot? It goes there. Building a power station is more like being given an empty board and some electronic components and building the motherboard/CPU/etc.
I can build computers from the parts, yeah. I don't buy premade computers. Still not the same as fixing BSOD, or some of the wierd errors you get on computers.
If it moves, compile it
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HuntrCkr wrote:
So, by definition, a programmer is someone who makes a computer system do his bidding
Optional definitions I found of programmer, software engineer, etc : --------------------------------------------------------------------------- One who prepares or writes instructional programs. a person who designs and writes and tests computer programs a person who writes a program so that data may be processed by a computer Computer science: --------------------------------------------------------------------- the branch of engineering science that studies (with the aid of computers) computable processes and structures Computer User: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ a person who uses computers for work or entertainment or communication or business
If it moves, compile it
loctrice wrote:
Computer User:
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a person who uses computers for work or entertainment or communication or businessI assume you made the User and the work parts bold to empasize and try to point out that programmers are as a matter of fact users just doing their work. That's like saying a mechanic is just another car owner because he drives a car to work. It's true, BUT, if his car broke down on the way to work, it's kinda logical to assume he would maybe know how to fix it. Or at least have a good idea what went wrong even if he can't fix it himself. Programmers that complain about BSOD and PC's malfunctioning are like the mechanic that can't even tell you what's wrong with his own car. Would you trust that mechanic to fix YOUR car...... I didn't think so! So why should I trust that kind of programmer to write decent software?!? :confused:
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Having to play sysadmin is a distraction from coding. Not that I can't fix my own machine if necessary (sometimes I use a M-79), but I'd rather not have to do so.
When posting here, I do not represent anybody but myself.
But, you can if necessary. Some guys have been programming on computers for 20 years and still don't know the basics. I have a hard time understanding how you can go so long without learning the basics.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
when you don't even know how a computer works? At least the basics.
This isn't what the thread was implying at all. Knowing how a computer works, and the basics, does not involve being able to fix a blue screen.....
ryanb31 wrote:
You can't run to IT every time you run into an external issue causing your code not to work.
This is also not what your thread was saying.
If it moves, compile it
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Mike Hankey wrote:
But I can fix my own computer!
I do all my own repairs and diagnostics as well, but because I'm cheap, I'd rather spend 20 hours on a fix than pay some kid to pull out all the cards and say "I dunno" and charge me $75 to reformat my drive. I do repairs and charge other people though, I used to do it as favors but they keep coming back for more freebies every time their stupid kid visits a porn site. Charge them money and they return a little less often.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
Same goes for me... :thumbsup:
Always Keep Smiling. Yours Pankaj Nikam
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
In fairness it really is two different areas of knowledge. As a kid geek in the 80s I had no money of my own, so I coded and tore apart my pc. As an adult, I started my career in PC repair and moved to network support while coding as a hobbyist. I've been a professional coder for more than a decade now and my OS/hardware troubleshooting skills are very dated! I used to constantly rebuild, tweak and overclock, but now I hardly deviate from the basics. As a programmer, having my pc work is more necessary than wringing every ounce of speed from my rig. Without that constant tweaking, troubleshooting has turned from an enjoyable challenge to a bore. I either let someone else do the grunt work, of format and rebuild. There are only so many hours in a day.
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Please don't ever put an icon on my desktop. I can't stand programs that put an icon on my desktop like Google Earth. Then every time there is an update/upgrade, they update the desktop icon that I removed. If I wanted clutter, I would use somebody else's computer. My desktop is sacred space for a very few select icons... I use my start bar or quick launch to find things, but don't assume I want them on my desktop. Hogan
Amen!!! I tell my developers - "if you write an installer that puts an icon on someone's desktop without asking, I'll withhold your next pay check... without asking." Amazing that we've never had to deal with that issue any longer. BTW, I can and do fix my own computer. I think that we as developers (I'm also an engineer) have a far deeper understanding of what goes on under the hood. I've solved problems where other non-developer types were ready to throw in the towel and re-format/re-install.
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But, you can if necessary. Some guys have been programming on computers for 20 years and still don't know the basics. I have a hard time understanding how you can go so long without learning the basics.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
It's easy to go so long without learning the basics. Just ask somebody who has been driving cars for 20 years but can't even swap out a flat tire -- because they've always been able to have somebody else do it for them.
When posting here, I do not represent anybody but myself.
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Please don't ever put an icon on my desktop. I can't stand programs that put an icon on my desktop like Google Earth. Then every time there is an update/upgrade, they update the desktop icon that I removed. If I wanted clutter, I would use somebody else's computer. My desktop is sacred space for a very few select icons... I use my start bar or quick launch to find things, but don't assume I want them on my desktop. Hogan
I wasn't referring to his inability to put an icon on a desktop with an installer - that would be a legitimate programmer question for someone who doesn't do much in the way of installer packages. This guy didn't know how to put a shortcut to Visual Studio on his own desktop.
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There was this one time when I created a desktop shortcut on a Windows server only to have users complain that there is no shortcut. Ofcourse, what I had not thought about was different people use different logins and I should have placed the shortcut at the appropriate location. :-O
SG Aham Brahmasmi!
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
These are the so called self taught developers, who have learned to code but have no knowledge of a computer's hardware. Binary is as foreign to them as learning a new language.
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Please don't ever put an icon on my desktop. I can't stand programs that put an icon on my desktop like Google Earth. Then every time there is an update/upgrade, they update the desktop icon that I removed. If I wanted clutter, I would use somebody else's computer. My desktop is sacred space for a very few select icons... I use my start bar or quick launch to find things, but don't assume I want them on my desktop. Hogan
This is a huge pet peeve for me. And the second biggest reason I don't have adobe reader installed on my pc anymore. (the first being that it is a major attack vector)
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Please don't ever put an icon on my desktop. I can't stand programs that put an icon on my desktop like Google Earth. Then every time there is an update/upgrade, they update the desktop icon that I removed. If I wanted clutter, I would use somebody else's computer. My desktop is sacred space for a very few select icons... I use my start bar or quick launch to find things, but don't assume I want them on my desktop. Hogan
I don't so much mind putting an icon on my desktop (although most installers will ask whether or not to do this), but I had one app that not only automatically updates itself, but rearranges all of my desktop icons when it does so. I keep my icons organized on the right side of my desktop, specifically so that I can tell if something has added one without my permission (it'll always be in the upper left corner). This app comes in and moves them all to the upper left corner and down the left side, and gets them all out of order to boot. I have stopped using that app. And yes, I could have turned off automatic updates, but it still rearranged the icons even when I did a manual update.
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Mike Hankey wrote:
But I can fix my own computer!
I do all my own repairs and diagnostics as well, but because I'm cheap, I'd rather spend 20 hours on a fix than pay some kid to pull out all the cards and say "I dunno" and charge me $75 to reformat my drive. I do repairs and charge other people though, I used to do it as favors but they keep coming back for more freebies every time their stupid kid visits a porn site. Charge them money and they return a little less often.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
S Houghtelin wrote:
I'd rather spend 20 hours on a fix than pay some kid to pull out all the cards and say "I dunno" and charge me $75 to reformat my drive.
I go by another philosophy, when my computer is sick, I may spend 1-2 hours looking into the problem. Research, re-install drivers and the what not... However, if after a short time, I will format and re-install. Spending 20 hours costs way more than the additional few hours to re-install. And throughout the years, I have gotten really skilled in organizing my important file by backing up to another drive or machine, burn a ROM in cases of important data like tax returns. Hey, the benefits would be maybe time to upgrade OS (although I still run XP and don't intend to switch), or just to have a super clean machine and just re-install the apps I need when I need them. And relocate the Desktop to another drive. Simple and easy peezy.
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Believe it or not, some so called professional programmers haven’t a clue how to manage their own development tools let alone manage their PC. I can name half a dozen here. All programmers ought to know how to piece together their machine from parts.
