Shouldn't programmers know how to fix computers?
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I am not a support tech. The particular issue that has put me over the top is 2 co-workers who BSOD almost daily. We are a small company and do not have the IT guy readily available. All they do is complain about it, they never even look up the error. But I still stand by my point. The computer is not only a tool we use to develop it is also the platform for which our products are delivered. I don't understand the narrow-mindedness of claiming "I just write code."
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I definitely see your point, but I don't think the problem is with developers in general. I think you should fire those guys and hire somebody who can handle the work of a small company. I started in a small company, and I know what you are talking about. The company just did not hire the right people. I still stand my point too. Good developers can fix their computers, and most of them like myself do. However, with my experience and knowledge, and I am sure this is true for most developers who really care about their art, I know how much time it takes to fix a particular error. Thus, if it takes too much time. I rather call a specialist, in this case a tech, again in a mid-size company, and let him handle it, while I borrow another computer to continue developing. No product developed, no company. Next time when they ask you to fix something, do what should be done... let them suffer until they realize it's time to learn... and learn quick. Change or die. Simple. I am not arguing against you, just arguing against generalizing developers. :)
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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At least you try. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Indeed: I usually try [Ctrl]-[ALT]-[DEL]. Happily this works most of the time. I still don't know why ;P
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I can't think why, but you make me think of cactus... 20+ years ago when I came into the PROFESSION there was a lot of cross over between hardware and software. It made life an elephant pain. Today we don't have to worry what the media is, we use it. Imagine rewriting your code because a new disk has been installed. It sucked. Big chunks. Today, we let the hardware boys deal with their voodoo. Their job is to make sure it works. Our job is to make sure we use it well.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
If you don't understand something it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to use it well. Understanding hardware isn't as critical as it used to be, but it is still important if you want to use it well.
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I would like it if all developers would learn how to use computers. I work with a bunch of programmers that can't even figure out how to copy and paste. Granite they are all in their sixties. But still they should at at least know the basics. They do come from a main frame environment so I understand the learning curve. But you would think after a year or so they would figure out the basics of a mouse. They have all been using windows now for over 10 years and they still haven't figured out the basics. I do agree that programmers should be able to fix their computers but I think some need to start with just figuring out the basics of how the computer works first. I guess I am just frustrated with old developers that don't want to learn anything new and are just waiting for retirement. Most of them got into the field for the money and not because they loved it.
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Fixed your title What drives me even more bonkers are developers who don't know how to put a shortcut to an app on the desktop. :doh: True story, that.
Please don't ever put an icon on my desktop. I can't stand programs that put an icon on my desktop like Google Earth. Then every time there is an update/upgrade, they update the desktop icon that I removed. If I wanted clutter, I would use somebody else's computer. My desktop is sacred space for a very few select icons... I use my start bar or quick launch to find things, but don't assume I want them on my desktop. Hogan
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I am not a support tech. The particular issue that has put me over the top is 2 co-workers who BSOD almost daily. We are a small company and do not have the IT guy readily available. All they do is complain about it, they never even look up the error. But I still stand by my point. The computer is not only a tool we use to develop it is also the platform for which our products are delivered. I don't understand the narrow-mindedness of claiming "I just write code."
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Have you considered that he claim "I just write code" is backed by your developers' contract? Does their contract state they have to take care of their infrastructure and set up and maintain all required hard- and software? If yes they're not fulfilling their contract. If no, you're having unreasonable expectations.
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Having to play sysadmin is a distraction from coding. Not that I can't fix my own machine if necessary (sometimes I use a M-79), but I'd rather not have to do so.
When posting here, I do not represent anybody but myself.
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Most automobiles have many computerized systems in them. Do you expect the mechanic to be a computer technician?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. In at least so far that he knows how to run a diagnostic on those computerized system. If he can't do that, then he isn't qualified to work on my car, and he should stick to fixing VW's ;)
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Do you expect them to be a materials engineer to determine why the brake pads have worn out?
No, but I do expect him to be able to tell me that the brake pads are indeed worn out, not just simply "Uh, your car won't stop.... I don't know why!"
Mark Nischalke wrote:
So you expect anyone who programs computers to also be a hardware technician?
So, by definition, a programmer is someone who makes a computer system do his bidding. Whether it be via a provided API, or direct to metal, makes no difference. If something goes wrong, I expect them to be able to find the problem, even if it turns out that the problem lies in the API... ie, if a "programmer" ever came to me and said "It doesn't work... I don't know why!", he loses all credibility in my eyes In short, I don't expect the programmer to fix the hardware issue, or the driver issue either. Just to be able to point to it, and say "This is what is causing the problem... Can you help me fix it?"
HuntrCkr wrote:
So, by definition, a programmer is someone who makes a computer system do his bidding
Optional definitions I found of programmer, software engineer, etc : --------------------------------------------------------------------------- One who prepares or writes instructional programs. a person who designs and writes and tests computer programs a person who writes a program so that data may be processed by a computer Computer science: --------------------------------------------------------------------- the branch of engineering science that studies (with the aid of computers) computable processes and structures Computer User: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ a person who uses computers for work or entertainment or communication or business
If it moves, compile it
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I would expect any tradesman to know how to maintain the tools he works with. I wouldn't hire a carpenter with blunt chisels to put in a new kitchen. So why should a programmer be any different? Their PC is the primary tool they need to do their work so they should at least know the basics of how to maintain it.
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No one is suggesting developers debug drivers. But how can you create a program and hand it over to a customer when you don't even know how a computer works? At least the basics. You can't run to IT every time you run into an external issue causing your code not to work.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
when you don't even know how a computer works? At least the basics.
This isn't what the thread was implying at all. Knowing how a computer works, and the basics, does not involve being able to fix a blue screen.....
ryanb31 wrote:
You can't run to IT every time you run into an external issue causing your code not to work.
This is also not what your thread was saying.
If it moves, compile it
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Please don't ever put an icon on my desktop. I can't stand programs that put an icon on my desktop like Google Earth. Then every time there is an update/upgrade, they update the desktop icon that I removed. If I wanted clutter, I would use somebody else's computer. My desktop is sacred space for a very few select icons... I use my start bar or quick launch to find things, but don't assume I want them on my desktop. Hogan
Amen, brother!!
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It states pretty clearly what to do[^]. If you get a software error that points you towards a specific file, what are you going to do? My guess is google information on that file. This error screen names a specific file, google it and it will point you towards the proper piece of hardware, from there you can google drivers. It's almost identical to getting an error about a missing dll, and finding out what you need to install to get that dll.
Yeah. I've had a computer blue screen on an mp3 player. We took out the mp3 player after following options. Still got the blue screen. My point is, instructions (in that scenerio) were followed and did nothing. Most of the blue screens I've encountered at work have also not been fixed by the instructions on that screen. Every blue screen I've encountered at work has resulted in a re-install/ or repair by the install disk. That screen is useless to me.
If it moves, compile it
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Can the delivery man service his truck?
Can the carpenter repair his lath?
Does Hamilton know how the car works?All of these are significantly more difficult than plugging a board into a slot. Anyone who can figure out the children's toy where you put the round block in the round hole, the square block in the square hole, etc. has the skill necessary to change hardware in a computer. And a programmer should have the skill necessary to diagnose the error (i.e. google some error codes). And I'm sure all of them do some form of maintenance, the driver likely cleans out his own cabin, maybe fills up gas, etc. A dull tool will likely be sharpened, dirty ones cleaned, etc. Can you assemble a workstation (given a tower, monitor(s), keyboard, etc. can you attach them together)? Yes? Building a computer/changing hardware is identical to that. USB cable fits in the USB port? It goes there. PCIe card fits in the PCIe slot? It goes there. Building a power station is more like being given an empty board and some electronic components and building the motherboard/CPU/etc.
lewax00 wrote:
And I'm sure all of them do some form of maintenance, the driver likely cleans out his own cabin, maybe fills up gas, etc. A dull tool will likely be sharpened, dirty ones cleaned, etc.
All of this is equal to running software like disk cleanup on your machine. It's not the same as diagnosing and fixing a BSOD.
lewax00 wrote:
Can you assemble a workstation (given a tower, monitor(s), keyboard, etc. can you attach them together)? Yes? Building a computer/changing hardware is identical to that. USB cable fits in the USB port? It goes there. PCIe card fits in the PCIe slot? It goes there. Building a power station is more like being given an empty board and some electronic components and building the motherboard/CPU/etc.
I can build computers from the parts, yeah. I don't buy premade computers. Still not the same as fixing BSOD, or some of the wierd errors you get on computers.
If it moves, compile it
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HuntrCkr wrote:
So, by definition, a programmer is someone who makes a computer system do his bidding
Optional definitions I found of programmer, software engineer, etc : --------------------------------------------------------------------------- One who prepares or writes instructional programs. a person who designs and writes and tests computer programs a person who writes a program so that data may be processed by a computer Computer science: --------------------------------------------------------------------- the branch of engineering science that studies (with the aid of computers) computable processes and structures Computer User: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ a person who uses computers for work or entertainment or communication or business
If it moves, compile it
loctrice wrote:
Computer User:
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a person who uses computers for work or entertainment or communication or businessI assume you made the User and the work parts bold to empasize and try to point out that programmers are as a matter of fact users just doing their work. That's like saying a mechanic is just another car owner because he drives a car to work. It's true, BUT, if his car broke down on the way to work, it's kinda logical to assume he would maybe know how to fix it. Or at least have a good idea what went wrong even if he can't fix it himself. Programmers that complain about BSOD and PC's malfunctioning are like the mechanic that can't even tell you what's wrong with his own car. Would you trust that mechanic to fix YOUR car...... I didn't think so! So why should I trust that kind of programmer to write decent software?!? :confused:
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Having to play sysadmin is a distraction from coding. Not that I can't fix my own machine if necessary (sometimes I use a M-79), but I'd rather not have to do so.
When posting here, I do not represent anybody but myself.
But, you can if necessary. Some guys have been programming on computers for 20 years and still don't know the basics. I have a hard time understanding how you can go so long without learning the basics.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
when you don't even know how a computer works? At least the basics.
This isn't what the thread was implying at all. Knowing how a computer works, and the basics, does not involve being able to fix a blue screen.....
ryanb31 wrote:
You can't run to IT every time you run into an external issue causing your code not to work.
This is also not what your thread was saying.
If it moves, compile it
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Mike Hankey wrote:
But I can fix my own computer!
I do all my own repairs and diagnostics as well, but because I'm cheap, I'd rather spend 20 hours on a fix than pay some kid to pull out all the cards and say "I dunno" and charge me $75 to reformat my drive. I do repairs and charge other people though, I used to do it as favors but they keep coming back for more freebies every time their stupid kid visits a porn site. Charge them money and they return a little less often.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
Same goes for me... :thumbsup:
Always Keep Smiling. Yours Pankaj Nikam
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Does it drive anyone else bonkers when developers keep complaining about their windows PC blue screening? If you know how to program why can't you figure out how to fix your own computer, or at least start researching?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
In fairness it really is two different areas of knowledge. As a kid geek in the 80s I had no money of my own, so I coded and tore apart my pc. As an adult, I started my career in PC repair and moved to network support while coding as a hobbyist. I've been a professional coder for more than a decade now and my OS/hardware troubleshooting skills are very dated! I used to constantly rebuild, tweak and overclock, but now I hardly deviate from the basics. As a programmer, having my pc work is more necessary than wringing every ounce of speed from my rig. Without that constant tweaking, troubleshooting has turned from an enjoyable challenge to a bore. I either let someone else do the grunt work, of format and rebuild. There are only so many hours in a day.
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Please don't ever put an icon on my desktop. I can't stand programs that put an icon on my desktop like Google Earth. Then every time there is an update/upgrade, they update the desktop icon that I removed. If I wanted clutter, I would use somebody else's computer. My desktop is sacred space for a very few select icons... I use my start bar or quick launch to find things, but don't assume I want them on my desktop. Hogan
Amen!!! I tell my developers - "if you write an installer that puts an icon on someone's desktop without asking, I'll withhold your next pay check... without asking." Amazing that we've never had to deal with that issue any longer. BTW, I can and do fix my own computer. I think that we as developers (I'm also an engineer) have a far deeper understanding of what goes on under the hood. I've solved problems where other non-developer types were ready to throw in the towel and re-format/re-install.
