Do you need a college education to be a programmer?
-
Very well put Collin. I think college is a way of growing in your way of thinking, your writing skills, your speaking skills, and your confidence in your ability to always find the answer. Should apprenticeship be part of the overall mix?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
It certainly wouldn't hurt. Some programs I have seen require internship (usually tech schools though)... Not much difference really but I think the expentance is slightly different. For the individual it has advantages for people to "try out" before signing on the dotted line. For the employer they also get to "try out" the individual to see if they are a cultural fit and if they meet the real job requirements. It also would get the student to take that leap (talking to companies etc.) and still have the saftey net of school (hmmm that really wasn't for me, I think I will start a slightly different path). However making it part of the mix though would be against the university system which in away already has an Apprentiship type system in place. Get your degree Find a Professor to study under Be his lacky (TA, Reasearch Papers etc.) Study for MS Study for Ph.D Become Associate Professor Kiss the Deans butt for years Become a tenured Professor Get your own lackies to Teach and write your papers So keeping this in mind most Universities would not want to 'require' it... Just offer it which they do with internship and Co-Op programs.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
From a technical standpoint it's still my contention after working professionally for 20 years that you don't need a college degree. Nothing I've seen from classes, course outlines, or actual graduates has shown me that a degree makes you a better programmer or prepares you for enterprise development. Apprenticeships would be a wonderful thing. In the meantime, junior development positions I think are a nice way to handle this. Otherwise, coding on your own and creating a portfolio has been a good way to get in the door for an interview when I'm the hiring manager. From an HR standpoint, and sadly, often you need a college degree just to get an interview.
No artists interprets nature as a lawyer interprets the truth.
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
I don't think my degree necessarily helped me other than get me interviews. As others have said HR uses the requirement of a degree as a means to whittle down the applicant list - I have tried applying for jobs where I was told that only "red brick" university degree applicants would be considered. It's all really about getting your foot in the door, once you have done that you have no need for a degree. I would be more interested in what someone can do rather than what they know - but that means diddly-squat if I never get to interview these kinds of people if the manager or HR have binned applications from non-degree holders...
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
-
Yoiks! Way to make me feel 2 feet tall, Roger! Elephanting hell, though, you do have a point though I think it diminishes with time and experience; in other words I'm vastly more knowledgeable now but, more importantly, I've learnt to value that I don't know everything so take extra care to cover all the bases and ask for input from as many sources as I can. Fortunately, nothing I work on is a safety critical function but I'd like to think that I bring the same rigor to my craft as anyone, regardless of formal qualifications. ps Close to finishing my comp science degree - you're never too old to learn!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
mark merrens wrote:
I've learnt to value that I don't know everything so take extra care
That's called wisdom, Mark. Some get it, some never do.
mark merrens wrote:
Close to finishing my comp science degree
Way cool! :-D I'm just getting started on my MS, myself, about 30 years late. Better late than never...
Will Rogers never met me.
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
College doesn't teach you to program. It teaches you to learn and to be disciplined.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
-
I consider it an excellent idea. But that being said, there needs to be some sort of standard associated with a profession. In a sense, a college degree is a contract; it tells an employer that a candidate has shown competency in this and that area of knowledge. It doesn't guarantee that the individual is a good worker, or honest, or cares about doing quality work, but it does establish a level of expertise as a minimum. There's no reason that this can't be extended to apprenticeship, but without it I'd be cautious about what I hired a programmer to do. Would you want to entrust programming a safety-critical function to someone who is self taught and has no certain background? I've known a number of excellent engineers in my career who lacked an engineering degree. They were excellent at their jobs, since most engineers never need half the stuff they teach us. But what if a job came up that really required an in-depth understanding of physics, or a theoretical understanding of the limits of a technique that most pick up as a rule of thumb, along with general engineering judgement? I wouldn't want one of these guys in that position, especially if public safety was an issue. I've caught a number of serious errors before they've happened because of my degree, things overlooked or not adequately explored by engineers who lacked my education. I would be surprised if such things didn't happen regularly out there in the real world. Programming is a similarly demanding job - at times. Most of the time, though, it just requires a bit of reasoning skill, and a good understanding of a language or two, and a good set of requirements to program a task. Apprentices, and even completely self-taught individuals are entirely capable of doing most routine assignments. I think a set of skills that can be demonstrated via testing, or demonstration to other professionals - a review board, of sorts - would be perfectly acceptable way to train most programmers. Even the reviews people receive here at CodeProject I would consider in evaluating a programmer; we have some of the most skilled programmers on the planet here, and I'd bet that few of them have any formal programming degree. I like the idea! :)
Will Rogers never met me.
I have always said that the most useful thing I learned in my engineering degree was to analyse the problem and search on my own to find a solution. About all the things I saw in the lessons... I only use one or two, the rest was just to acquire personality ;)
Regards. -------- M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpfull answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
Tom Clement wrote:
Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer?
Depends on what you mean. In general yes. Not because they are necessarily better for it but rather because of the following. 1. They are more likely to get an entry level job while in college and because they are in college (program associated with college) and thus can bumble their way to learning practical programming or perhaps even be mentored in to it. 2. Employers are more willing to accept graduates with less experience than non-graduates. However an individual who has the following can succeed. 1. Desire/Drive to program 2. Ability to program 3. Social skills sufficient to talk themselves into a programming job. Note that 1/2 say nothing about excelling in those. Also note that 3 is a skill that programming itself will not teach.
Tom Clement wrote:
you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Far as I am concerned when mentoring works it works really well. The novice is driven to please the senior and the senior must stretch outside their comfort zone to insure that the novice succeeds. I can't speak as to the programming industry in general but my perception is that companies that hire inexperienced developers often do so only as a source of cheap labor and either have no mentoring programs in place or do it in a way which doesn't provide benefit (to neither the novice nor the senior.)
-
There's a lot of benefits to a structured education that you wouldn't get with an apprenticeship. One perfect example, we have a certain person in our company who writes at the third grade level, should have probably been forced to take more english/technical writing courses. Not that taking the courses will guarantee you'll be better at anything, but it'll give you a chance at becoming more well rounded.
Albert Holguin wrote:
...but it'll give you a chance at becoming more well rounded.
And yet in 40+ years of programming I have never needed any knowledge about Shakespeare nor the Iliad. Nor how theoretical refrigerators work nor how to prove anything about Platonic solids. Oddly enough I also haven't seen any reputable university educational programs that actually seemed to produce either of the following 1. Significant number of graduates 2. "Good" programmers consistently. I have certainly seen educational systems that produced large numbers of graduates with 'degrees' that were basically useless. And their are institutions that seem to produce more qualified graduates on average compared to other institutions. But the percentage is not significant and I suspect it is the opportunities that such institutions provide rather than the actual teaching that produces better candidates.
-
I consider it an excellent idea. But that being said, there needs to be some sort of standard associated with a profession. In a sense, a college degree is a contract; it tells an employer that a candidate has shown competency in this and that area of knowledge. It doesn't guarantee that the individual is a good worker, or honest, or cares about doing quality work, but it does establish a level of expertise as a minimum. There's no reason that this can't be extended to apprenticeship, but without it I'd be cautious about what I hired a programmer to do. Would you want to entrust programming a safety-critical function to someone who is self taught and has no certain background? I've known a number of excellent engineers in my career who lacked an engineering degree. They were excellent at their jobs, since most engineers never need half the stuff they teach us. But what if a job came up that really required an in-depth understanding of physics, or a theoretical understanding of the limits of a technique that most pick up as a rule of thumb, along with general engineering judgement? I wouldn't want one of these guys in that position, especially if public safety was an issue. I've caught a number of serious errors before they've happened because of my degree, things overlooked or not adequately explored by engineers who lacked my education. I would be surprised if such things didn't happen regularly out there in the real world. Programming is a similarly demanding job - at times. Most of the time, though, it just requires a bit of reasoning skill, and a good understanding of a language or two, and a good set of requirements to program a task. Apprentices, and even completely self-taught individuals are entirely capable of doing most routine assignments. I think a set of skills that can be demonstrated via testing, or demonstration to other professionals - a review board, of sorts - would be perfectly acceptable way to train most programmers. Even the reviews people receive here at CodeProject I would consider in evaluating a programmer; we have some of the most skilled programmers on the planet here, and I'd bet that few of them have any formal programming degree. I like the idea! :)
Will Rogers never met me.
Roger Wright wrote:
...but it does establish a level of expertise as a minimum
Expertise at what exactly? Getting grades? A developer with no degree and 4 years of work experience will vastly outperform a person with a degree and no experience (as long as all other particulars are held constant.)
Roger Wright wrote:
But what if a job came up that really required an in-depth understanding of physics, or a theoretical understanding of the limits of a technique that most pick up as a rule of thumb, along with general engineering judgement?
That of course is domain knowledge. Just as domain knowledge is needed for jobs related to medicine/health, finance and telecommunications. And on average how many jobs exist in those sectors compared to the sectors that require the knowledge that you refer to?
-
mark merrens wrote:
I've learnt to value that I don't know everything so take extra care
That's called wisdom, Mark. Some get it, some never do.
mark merrens wrote:
Close to finishing my comp science degree
Way cool! :-D I'm just getting started on my MS, myself, about 30 years late. Better late than never...
Will Rogers never met me.
Roger Wright wrote:
Better late than never...
Good luck with that!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
Well, Yes and No! When I went to University, this place had One Computer, occupying an entire building, costing Many millions of dollars, with the computer power of a Commodore64. the art those days was to have that expensive computer calculating constantly (No Idle Time allowed), and having hundreds of punch card terminals, Tape Banking Stations, and other quaint hardware pieces, a myrad of staff to work it al and make it sing. No-one was allowed in or even near that building without proper authorisation. I did my obliguatory projects there, but decided that there was no future in computers. I opted instead for pure mathematics, at the other end of the campus, where computers were totally distrusted, and got a degree there. Now the real value of the degree, apart from acquiring knowledge, is the skill of learning to analyse, discuss, and contemplate concepts. This is what I learned both in formal discussion groups, as well as in the pubs and clubs in evening time. Many years later, I acquired a Commodore 64, and armed with knowledge about how to approach a problem, I developed skills in programming it, first in basic, later in assembler. From there I moved on to learning 'C', 'C++' and got (More than)familiar with MFC. Many years later again, I am running a Company,with my Partner that provides POS terminals. This involves More than just Software development. It involves Marketing, Accounts, Personell Management, Cash Flow Analysis, None of which either of us ever studied at university. Now, for Startup Programmers, We give anyone a chance. Believe it or not, it takes less than three monthsto Seperate effective coders from non-effective ones. To be able to be promoted however, one has to be able to show leadership,and management skills. a Degree to us is a First indication that you spent 4 years with inteligent mates, discussing issues. No, on balance, get a degree in anything, it shows you can learn and understand. To me a Law degree, plus apparent computing skils is as good as an IT degree :)
Bram van Kampen
-
Very well put Collin. I think college is a way of growing in your way of thinking, your writing skills, your speaking skills, and your confidence in your ability to always find the answer. Should apprenticeship be part of the overall mix?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
Tom Clement wrote:
Should apprenticeship be part of the overall mix?
That is a great idea. For instance, you cannot graduate with an engineering degree from the University of Cincinnati without doing coop work. So, it takes 5 years rather than 4 to get your degree there. When I needed some programming help, I hired an intern from the local university (Colorado). A very bright and delightful girl worked for me, earned some money for her schooling and hopefully learnt what it meant to work with users rather thasn code a linked-list or bubble sort as part of her computer science education.
-
Roger Wright wrote:
...but it does establish a level of expertise as a minimum
Expertise at what exactly? Getting grades? A developer with no degree and 4 years of work experience will vastly outperform a person with a degree and no experience (as long as all other particulars are held constant.)
Roger Wright wrote:
But what if a job came up that really required an in-depth understanding of physics, or a theoretical understanding of the limits of a technique that most pick up as a rule of thumb, along with general engineering judgement?
That of course is domain knowledge. Just as domain knowledge is needed for jobs related to medicine/health, finance and telecommunications. And on average how many jobs exist in those sectors compared to the sectors that require the knowledge that you refer to?
Disclaimer #1: I didn't give you the 1-vote. Disclaimer #2: I have a B.S. degree in computer engineering: Wright State University class of 1984, go Raiders! I've found your type of contempt for formal education to be pretty common among long-time developers that don't have a degree. Your experience with college folks with little or no concrete work background is that they over-complicate things with fancy sh!t that fails to get the job done. This is made worse by the college kids themselves, who think their degree grants them superhuman powers and act like it. My experience with non-degreed developers is that they tend to have a narrower range of responses to a given problem. Through trial and error and a lot of hard work they've discovered a sheaf of approaches to the problems they encounter. It's the old "when you have a hammer, every problem is a nail" thing. Time is the great leveler. Once a developer has 15 or 20 years of experience, that background is much more important for deciding whether they are a good fit for a team than whether or not they have a college degree. I'm of the opinion you're still not worth a crap as a programmer when you graduate if you didn't work as one during school. I started working as a programmer in 1980, after only two programming classes. The company that hired me used me as slave labor on contract. I wrote FORTRAN, various assembly languages, and did system management and technical writing for a pile of customers by the time I graduated. My work experience was as valuable as my education.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
What you need to learn depends on what you intend to achieve. Pure mechanical programming just requires common sense, an understanding of (boolean) logic, and a good book. However, if you want to write the most efficient cloud-computing libraries, juggle complex multithreaded applications, or develop new computer languages, then you pretty much have to know all those 'dry college classes'. Apprenticeship is probably a good middle ground. In switzerland there are IT apprenticeships, but they're more about IT infrastructure than programming. It's certainly possible to put a focus on programming and then get a job in that area though: knowing how to set up and fix your own PC is something specifically small companies appreciate.
-
Nowadays, it seems so. Back in the day (70's & early 80's), it wasn't necessary because computers were young.Anyone that started back in that time frame and is still programming (like me) is well beyond the need for a degree. "Time served" is often all that's necessary in that regard.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997I was a frat boy dropout at Kentucky in the early 80s when I got an opportunity. I started as a Junior Programmer back in 1983 when IT was called MIS and nobody had ever heard of Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Since then I have fashioned an almost 30 year career in IT that has been quite successfull for me. So I'm not so sure a 4 year degree is necessary to be successfull. If I were a kid looking for a career in IT today, I would probably attend a 2 year school designed specifically for IT like an Ivy Tech.
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
I am of the opinion that you don't need a college education to become a good programmer. Though from a hiring perspective I would only hire people with degrees. It would be too time consuming for most to take on an apprentice. Most people, from what I have seen, that work in IT already have a vast workload as it is. The college system is a good way to see how fit a person is for that industry while giving them a base to work on. Where I am from the drop-out rate is quite high, only about 25% that start the course actually finish it. If this were the same for an apprenticeship (I am sure it would not be this low considering interviews etc.) it would not be worth taking anybody on. When hiring if I had a choice between somebody that had 4 years college behind them and had somewhat proven their ability vs somebody that was self thought but not formally qualified I am afraid I would always have to choose the person with the degree.
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
I dropped out of college in 1999 and have since managed to make a living as a developer for twelve years, but it hasn't been easy. Many HR people will automatically bin a resume which doesn't mention having a BS in computer science or mathematics, which strikes me as a form of class-based discrimination in a country where college is only for the wealthy or those willing to sell themselves into indentured servitude by taking on tens of thousands of dollars in debt.
When posting here, I do not represent anybody but myself.
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
A single line answer would be "ABSOLUTELY NOT". In college at least in India you are taught all sort of stuff which are later told that the previously taught stuff was proved wrong by some other guy and all this happened even before we where born. Why cant the teach the last and the latest? This type of contradictory style of education system and also the main purpose of learning is to get good marks / grades so that you must get a good job makes students ROBOTS which are fed with data and give back data on exam paper destroys the creative and logical talent of students. Learning is always good but it should in a different where first the aptitude of student is taken into consideration and then he is "helped" to learn according to his aptitude and not "forcing" him with data.
Thanks Anand Ayyappan
-
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
To be honest I have limited formal education within IT areas and I have been doing this for 13 years. I don't doubt that a college education gives people what they need to get a foot in the door but in my experience you have to knock graduates into shape and teach them real world skill. Education skills != Real life programming ability