What about W8?
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I'm less concerned than I was a few weeks ago because MS has responded to (and fixed) most of what sounded moststupid about the desktop; but at best I think it's going to be XPSP0. Lengthy post I made a few weeks ago on the subject: http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=4252086#xx4252086xx[^]
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Thanks for the info. That's good to know, for sure. I hope they do keep the desktop. Whether they add other functionality is a situation I'm not overly concerned with, as long as it doesn't break the desktop apps.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Desktop is not going anywhere. Speak with some MS evangilists or the actual developers and you will see this. Everyone simply has their panties in a bunch because desktop is not the main push. In that I mean the desktop is as it always was... Oh but whats this. OMG a screen where I can't see my desktop!! They took my desktop and are killing it! Wait. No false alarm. Its still there. So why do people care? Who knows. To me most of the flaim "starting" points come from linux and mac user base. I have been using Win 8 for a bit now and I see know issues with still having desktop. I just see added value with metro... If you use it that is. If not, then stick with Win 7. But then again you do not have access to WinRT and can not develop on the Metro stack then....
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Thanks. I'm happy to hear that from someone who has actually used it. Have you noticed any performance issues with the desktop apps?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
gets rid of the desktop,
It doesn't. The desktop is still there. The start mechanism has changed from a menu to a screen of tiles, but the desktop is still behind it if you need it. There is a new class of apps that run full-screen and chromeless, but you can still develop and run desktop applications just fine. There's a whole lot of excessive hand-wringing out there. That's not to say that everyone is gonna instantly fall in love with the new/modified features, but it's not PCmageddon. :)
Marc A. Brown wrote:
There's a whole lot of excessive hand-wringing out there.
That's what I was hoping to hear. Thanks.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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I think it's suicide to ignore the desktop market, even if the majority of users are on tablets and similar devices, it's nearly impossible to actually write applications for those devices on anything less than a laptop (and even a laptop is, IMO, not sufficient for coding comfortably). Without the applications the OS is useless, and driving away the developers, who depend on the desktop environment, is a good start down that path.
I agree, but I don't make business decisions for MS.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Thanks. I'm happy to hear that from someone who has actually used it. Have you noticed any performance issues with the desktop apps?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I've been using it since the developer preview and haven't noticed any performance problems on the desktop side. If there's any change at all in desktop app performance I would expect their performance to increase due to the amount of effort they put into increasing the performance and decreasing memory usage over all.
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So, why doesn't Microsoft just come right out and say that?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I think they've said all along that the desktop is still there and that you'd be able to run desktop apps. Did you ever hear anything to the contrary from a trusted source?
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Thanks. I'm happy to hear that from someone who has actually used it. Have you noticed any performance issues with the desktop apps?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Not really. Tend to have multiple VS 11s running along with some IEs. No issues really other than beta stuff. Yesturday my collegue and I managed to get notepad of all things to give an exception.... NOTEPAD! We had quite the chuckle. We thought, way to go MS. You managed to elephant up the most classic and simple application out there. You never cease to amaze me.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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I'm running the 64-bit version of Win8 in Virtual box on my i7 right now. Runs as well as you might expect in a VM.
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Walt, Relax, it's not as bad as everybody thinks. My initial reaction to the concept was extremely negative. After having played with all 3 of the release previews I can see that they're starting to get the thing right. No, I don't particularly love Metro, however the system as a whole seems to be coming together OK. If you're a desktop user on W7, you don't need W8 - at all. However if you develop desktop applications (as I do) you're probably going to find that your Win8 target still works fine. I just tested my application in the desktop on Win8 and it runs perfectly. Mine is developed with VS2008 and uses SQL Server 2008 R2. No issues. This release is causing a lot of "hand waving" and angst. (Myself being part of the negative side for a long time). I'm not saying that I'm sold on the thing as yet but after using the recent Release Preview (Why they didn't just call it RC like they usually do beats me) I'm finding that they've smoothed things out a great deal. I can see the point of Metro - particularly on a tablet box. I would prefer not to have to deal with it on a desktop machine, however if the desktop still operates undisturbed then this won't be the boondoggle that I and others have predicted. Give the situation a little time. I can at-least say that if you're developing desktop applications that you still have a viable target in Win8: Relax, your stuff should still work. -Max
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Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything.
Eventually, we will all be walking around with microscopes attached to our eyeballs.
m.bergman
For Bruce Schneier, quanta only have one state : afraid.
To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered. -- Voltaire
In most cases the only difference between disappointment and depression is your level of commitment. -- Marc Maron
I am not a chatbot
10 Points! This is a great analysis of the future-world based on the stupidity that has gripped it currently...
Steve Naidamast Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@ix.netcom.com
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I have read quite a bit on Windows 8 and have installed two of the pre-release versions including the latest Windows 8 Release Preview. Like everyone else I was quite stunned to see Microsoft abandoning the "Start Menu" system within Desktop mode. However, after tinkering with the OS for a while I began to actually like the feel of it. For serious computing, every one who has a negative thing to say about the mixture of Metro with the Win 7 Desktop are all pretty much on target. And businesses are not expected to move to this operating system any time soon. Microsoft knows this and as a result has extended support for Windows 7 until 2020. By then they would have guaged the market well enough to either continue with the Metro interface as is or return Desktop mode to a full Windows 7 desktop. In any event, Windows 8 is very fast, even under a VM (And I recommend using VMWare's freeware, "VMPlayer" for this option. Stay away from Virtual-Box. It has issues based upon your configuration.). Switching between the Metro interface and the Desktop is very quick. The lack of the "Start Menu" is a rather foolish move but this doesn't stop any of us professional developers from designing our own start-menu system which can sit as an active application within Desktop mode making it much easier to launch applications, which is what it is mainly used for anyway. The Metro interface by the way, is a highly sophisticated piece of engineering and in terms of usability, based on theories of user-interface design, is actually far superior to Apple's OSX interface. True, the lack of icon detail is less rich than what we are used to but if you look at the Metro interface and its application design philosophies you will find that Microsoft has actually done the world a great service; in a nutshell it is eliminating the use of pictures in favor of forcing people to begin reading again; something the recent advent of mobile devices has discouraged. Designing for the Metro interface also allows us developers to use a standard MVVM paradigm without the necessity of using complex add-ons such as Prism. Now we can develop both desktop and web applications using similar styles of development. Of course, this does not include standard desktop apps but I imagine we are getting there now that MVVM is part of the Metro design libraries. I also agree with those who have commented on the fact that Microsoft is going after the mobile device market in favor of the Desktop considering its burgeoning size. However, the m
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I actually like it. Hover left corner for taskbar; hover right corner for settings; Click bottom left corner to switch to desktop or start page.
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I've been using it for a few months now and have actually really grown to like it. It has the best for both worlds and installed the latest Preview on my convertable laptop and get the best of both worlds. As a .net developer I find the Metro very easy to develop in and looks nice also.
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I have been running Windows 8 as my main Development machine since Consumer Preview. Not a single issue. Haven't needed to boot into Win 7 since. I do full time, professional development, half time WPF for desk top, half time WinRT for Metro. Desktop is same as it was before, with certain cosmetic changes and some nice additions like ribbon for Explorer which I think is really nice. Navigating between desktop and Metro start is a non-issue. I like the contrast between Metro and desktop when I make the switch, it is not jarring. Rather, it is refreshing. Learn the short cuts and things like Control Panel (yes, the Win 7 version) are easier to get to than they ever were.
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I've bought ChiWinsXpPro & ChiWins7Ultimate before and so familiarized with Microsoft's strategy from Dos to Wins3.1x, from Wins95 to WinsMe, from WinsXp to Wins7, from WinsNT3.51, WinsNT4, Wins2000, WinsServer2003, WinsServer2008 to WinsServer8. Can't you see that she always use an intercept strategy to maintain her market's competitive and only one time to integrate her workstation & server market, that is Wins2000?! Afterwards, she separate these two versions again and even break down into small, a little bit of differentiated versions. Besides, she always had breakthrough from starting a new version such as Wins95, WinsXp, WinsNT3.51, WinsServer2003 and made those unstable versions in those middle stages' such as Wins98, WinsVista, WinsNT4, WinsServer2008 and use the third version as her stage of tick-tick-tock's tock version such as WinsMe, Wins7...the coming WinsServer8 version and such WinsServer8 will be come from the core of Wins7 while WinsServer2008 was come from her WinsVista's core! What's new in Windows8 we can see?! Do we unable to download all free of charge software or something small software like metro apps into Wins7 series platform? Does Wins8 can overcome iPad? Does WinsPhone7.5/8 can overcome Android4/iPhone5? Will Microsoft integrate WinsPhone8Pro with Wins8 just like the coming Asus's Panphone (Transformer)? Will Microsoft even integrate WinsPhone8+Wins8+WinsServer8 into one OS which can be names as something like Wins8ServerPhone...? Why acting as an enterprise or personal user should upgrade & upgrade? Where was Bill Gate's promise as he has stated that Blackcomp (Wins7) is the final version and no further version will be issued after it, especially after a normal product cycle(So short period then comes a Wins8)? Is it final version & having great different from Wins7? Why don't we wait for Wins8Me and buy it at that time? One point that Microsoft will integrate Workstation & Server markets that is when she can't sell well in both items. Otherwise, she will use Workstation's rising development atmosphere to save bad selling in Server market or vice versa! Hopefully that, we can see Wins2000 Second again. However, up to this century, Wins2000 Second should combine with Mobile's OS just like Asus's Panphone whatever it should be performed as a portable server or not since make a life simple to serve one OS enough! Are you tired to chase, adapt & use different, new software in different OS or platforms? How can we create identical Apps to different Android4's mobiles even though we can have
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
No you are not misunderstanding it - Microsoft is! Unfortunately they don't get that Metro style is just about bearable on mobile but both Android and IOS leave it way behind. Windows 8 then forces this bad design down your throat on the desktop. It's very difficult to know why anyone would want Metro on a desktop based on what desktop/laptops are used for. Maybe as an option but not as the primary interface. Guess Microsoft now appears to be in Lemming mode - they are just trying to locate a cliff to throw themselves off and maybe Windows 8 is it - pity really!
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
When I see posts like this it makes me absolutely crazy! I've been running Windows 8 as my OS of choice since it was in beta. Once I hit the Metro screen I go to the desktop and I'm running Windows 7 on steroids. I have an Intel Quad core machine with 12 GB of memory, several TB of rotating storage and two large monitors. I love the Lighthouse theme and the silly sounds but most importantly, except for the lack of a Start button (which I never used anyway) I love Windows 8 as a superb place to do all of my development. :) Now I seriously wish I had some way to tell the WORLD what a fantastic job I think MS has done! Pardon me but in these case I feel obliged to treat all of you as beginners. When your machine starts click the Desktop button on the lower left and go to desktop mode. For everything you want to use, go to metro view, right click the programs you use and select Pin to Taskbar. From then on those programs will be available on the desktop taskbar and you'll never look back. More importantly - before you start posting BS like this PLEASE experiment a little so you know what you're talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!! :omg: And just to clear something up - Microsoft HAS NOT abandoned desktop developers like me. I still do everything I did with Windows 7 and more. ;P
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When I see posts like this it makes me absolutely crazy! I've been running Windows 8 as my OS of choice since it was in beta. Once I hit the Metro screen I go to the desktop and I'm running Windows 7 on steroids. I have an Intel Quad core machine with 12 GB of memory, several TB of rotating storage and two large monitors. I love the Lighthouse theme and the silly sounds but most importantly, except for the lack of a Start button (which I never used anyway) I love Windows 8 as a superb place to do all of my development. :) Now I seriously wish I had some way to tell the WORLD what a fantastic job I think MS has done! Pardon me but in these case I feel obliged to treat all of you as beginners. When your machine starts click the Desktop button on the lower left and go to desktop mode. For everything you want to use, go to metro view, right click the programs you use and select Pin to Taskbar. From then on those programs will be available on the desktop taskbar and you'll never look back. More importantly - before you start posting BS like this PLEASE experiment a little so you know what you're talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!! :omg: And just to clear something up - Microsoft HAS NOT abandoned desktop developers like me. I still do everything I did with Windows 7 and more. ;P
Bud Aaron wrote:
More importantly - before you start posting BS like this PLEASE experiment a little so you know what you're talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually I didn't post BS. I just asked for information from people with experience, like you. Thanks for the info and I am relieved after reading all the favorable reviews in this thread. I guess journalism thrives on negatives. That's why I asked for real info.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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That is pretty much how I read it as well - and pretty much my reaction. If true, I think it's another MS foot-shooting!
Ideological Purity is no substitute for being able to stick your thumb down a pipe to stop the water
I honestly think they have a winner with Win 7, paying attention to a tablet market is not a dumb move by any means. After seeing W8 in action, I am wondering what they are thinking. Most people do not want serious change on their DESKTOP like this. It is just another example of an out of sync company, that is at a horizon in their existence. The desktop market has changed because of tablets & phones, but as always they doing what they see fit. I love Windows, but this and the fact that they are going to not allow browser competition with their ARM tablet line, hardware acceleration issues, is history repeating itself. Down to earth consumers are looking elsewhere for home computing quickly. I already have Carpel Tunnel, I am not dragging screens with a mouse. Indie development is in a renaissance, the tides have changed. They really should think a bit about a "choice" for an honest to goodness Windows Interface as needed. I am already planning for the worst and may be switching to a Mac or Linux for development, if it gets this bad. I do not want to, but what I see is not a good sign, yet.
